Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I'd like to preface that, while I have helped to write this up, this is not based of my personal ideas, but from the discussions among the Guardians and the Ideas that the Delegate has of where he would like to see the region and the off-site community go. As far as I understand, this is a proposal that can still be adjusted, modified, tweaked and discussed with everyone, in order to improve it or adapt it as desired. This thread should NOT be the place for counter proposals. However, suggestions, opinions, questions, doubts about this proposal per se are obviously MORE than welcome. I put this here in the name of URA - not on my own - and open the discussions for it: STRUCTURE OF THE GOVERNMENT OF THE WEST PACIFIC This proposal recognizes the separation and difference between The West Pacific region, part of the NationStates game, and The West Pacific's forum community, also know as off-site community, and a desire for interaction between the two entities with the purpose of growth for both the in-site region and the off-site community. THE DELEGATE: The Delegate is the ultimate authority of the in-game region, and as such, his powers in-game can't be contested by the forum community outside of the rules as set by Max in the game. Should the forum community decide they desire a different delegate, they can attempt to legitimately overthrow the sitting delegate as per the NationStates rules, and the sitting delegate may defend his position as per the NationStates rules likewise. Both parts recognize and accept the rules set by Max as the ultimate rules regarding the delegacy and its powers. THE VICE-DELEGATE: The Vice-Delegate serves as per the choice of the Delegate as his deputy and second in-command of the government, assisting him in the coordination of the government and his guardians. His second primary function is to serve as liason with the off-site community in matters of coordination, joint efforts or communication. THE GUARDIANS: The Guardians also serve at the choice of the Delegate, and supervise areas related to the in-game aspects of the game: Military Affairs, Region to Region Diplomatic Relationships and Region Policing; they oversight off-site community departments associated to this areas and assist in the protection of the region's in-game delegacy. THE VOICE OF THE WEST PACIFIC: The Voice of the West Pacific is the sum of all citizens of The West Pacific region who also choose to become a part of the off-site community; they handle off-site activities, recruiting from the in-game region into the off-site forums, as well as any legislation that pertains matters and occurrences in the off-site community. Each and all individuals with one or more nations in The West Pacific are welcome to the Voice of The West Pacific, unless the voice itself expels someone within their legislative capabilities. THE ADVOCATE OF THE VOICE OF TWP: The Voice of the West Pacific shall have a sitting leader, The Advocate, democratically elected from among its individual members; he is responsible for coordinating The Voice legislative activities. He will have the power to appoint deputies for whatever tasks he deems necessary, or to take over his duties in cases of absence. THE MINISTRIES OF TWP: The Ministries of TWP will be a set of institutions that will serve to perform the executive duties in coordination between the in-game delegacy and the off-site voice. Such ministries will allow for both the delegacy and the community to work together towards the benefit and growth of both. There will be Ministers of Policing, Military, Diplomatic Affairs, Public Relations, Recruitment and Internal Affairs. The heads of such Ministries, (hereby known as Governors) will be selected by the Delegate upon application of the members of the Voice Voice in a process to be defined See Note 1. No Guardian can be a Governor, as well as no Governor can take the position of Advocate. The Governors and the Advocate hold the same authority rank, each Governor overseing its department, in coordination with the Guardian - should there be any - that oversees the area. LAWMAKING: Each and all members of the voice can make law proposals that will govern and limit the actions of the off-site community (no law shall pertain the in-game aspect); this laws can be discussed freely by all members of the voice and the delegacy, as moderated by the Advocate and its deputies. A proposal can only reach vote, however, under the sponsor of the governors, in which case the Advocate will dictate the procedure to vote and turn the proposal into law. PENDING: Define each ministry's tasks and responsibilities; determine how can a governor be replaced (indictment or challenge are two ideas), and a proper legal writing to all this; some of the current paragraphs of the previous voice could be rescued and used, among the rest. NOTE 1 All in all its a pretty good proposal. However, I share the opinion that the governors and the Ministries should be under Voice supervision, and the Advocate rank should be on par with that of the Delegate. This way, the Voice could create or disband ministries should the need arise. The Governors shouldn't be chosen by the Delegate either. He already has the Guardians working with the Governors. It would make more sense if applications went to an "Application Officer of the Voice" who would handle the application procedure with the Voice, then they went to the Voice itself to see which one's passed there, and finally to the Advocate for the final choice. Or perhaps to the Advocate first and then to the Voice in more of an appointment and confirmation style setup. And to be clear, in this proposal, the Minister of Legislative RP position does not exist, correct? EDIT: A definition of goals and a stock of the abilities of all active members would be very beneficial going forward. And the Application Officer would simply receive the applications by a set deadline, then report them to the Voice or whoever for a vote. This simply makes it more formal and a little simpler for the layman to understand. (Sorry for the edits, I accidentally hit submit instead of preview) Hariko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URAP Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I would love to have feedback here as ultimately the government will be run by you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westwind Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 So, we're just taking the Union and turning the DA's into "Governor" Ministers ? Other than the addition of the Vice Delegate, which has nothing to do with the government, I don't see any real change here. So what was the point of dissolving the Union ? Pestarzt and Mediobogdum 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 The Voice was not going to be in the proposal, but due to some Guardians request in behalf of the people, URA accepted to incorporate it back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestarzt Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I'll just repost this, for those who may've missed it: http://www.westpacific.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1557-rebellion/page-3#entry34701 TWP's difficulties come from a combination of a lack of a defined goal and some inefficient resource allocation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkdaddy Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I think we should - if this is a legit attempt at input - discuss the problems of the Union first before making a proposal. As Westie noted, this doesn't appear to change much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 It has more changes than that, but they are as minimal as possible to adapt the voice - that seemed to me the preferred thing from people - and the delegate ideas. The main changes are: - depts are no longer under the advocate supervision, this is, the DAs rebranded as governors are no longer below the advocate, and hence an in active advocate would not stop activity of the departments. - guardian supervision and coordination of the areas that are more in-game than offsite, with a voice governor to attempt unified activity - the vice-delegacy position, which (this is important) is not tied to a delegacy succession in any way, but formalizes some form of deputy to oversee activity of the governors/other guardian. There are in my personal opinion several improvable things on this, some of which I can't really think of - meaning that I feel the fix is needed but can't totally pinpoint or solve it - and hence why I wanted to bring it out: more eyes see more. The Union just needed activity imo, and I think it was in the process of recovering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TunApocalypse Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I hate all of this. Overall, this ultimately changes nothing, at least not for the better."THE VICE-DELEGATE: The Vice-Delegate serves as per the choice of the Delegate as his deputy and second in-command of the government, assisting him in the coordination of the government and his guardians. His second primary function is to serve as liason with the off-site community in matters of coordination, joint efforts or communication." Why is the delegate unable to communicate by himself? Why add the middleman? From what I'm seeing, the only thing the Vice-Delegate does is to help distance the Delegate from the rest of the region.LAWMAKING: Each and all members of the voice can make law proposals that will govern and limit the actions of the off-site community (no law shall pertain the in-game aspect); this laws can be discussed freely by all members of the voice and the delegacy, as moderated by the Advocate and its deputies. A proposal can only reach vote, however, under the sponsor of the governors, in which case the Advocate will dictate the procedure to vote and turn the proposal into law. So the Voice can do nothing unless the Delegate and his cronies approve? URA dissolved the Union for absolutely no good reason, and without having anything prepared to replace it. He then comes out with this, his usual crap. We keep hearing these promises of a new era, but we never see anything evidence that this will ever happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 Valid points. Vice-Delegate is only meant to be used as a secondary communication tool and decision malingr in case of justified delegate absence. The governors imo should be appointed and removed by the voice, either through indictment or challenge. But I t am not sure about how the delegate wanted to do that. The lawmaking, I feel you may be right about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 I'll just repost this, for those who may've missed it: http://www.westpacific.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1557-rebellion/page-3#entry34701 TWP's difficulties come from a combination of a lack of a defined goal and some inefficient resource allocation. I did missed it. You made amazing comments there indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujai Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 All in all its a pretty good proposal. However, I share the opinion that the governors and the Ministries should be under Voice supervision, and the Advocate rank should be on par with that of the Delegate. This way, the Voice could create or disband ministries should the need arise. The Governors shouldn't be chosen by the Delegate either. He already has the Guardians working with the Governors. It would make more sense if applications went to an "Application Officer of the Voice" who would handle the application procedure with the Voice, then they went to the Voice itself to see which one's passed there, and finally to the Advocate for the final choice. Or perhaps to the Advocate first and then to the Voice in more of an appointment and confirmation style setup. And to be clear, in this proposal, the Minister of Legislative RP position does not exist, correct? EDIT: A definition of goals and a stock of the abilities of all active members would be very beneficial going forward. And the Application Officer would simply receive the applications by a set deadline, then report them to the Voice or whoever for a vote. This simply makes it more formal and a little simpler for the layman to understand. (Sorry for the edits, I accidentally hit submit instead of preview) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 All in all its a pretty good proposal. However, I share the opinion that the governors and the Ministries should be under Voice supervision, and the Advocate rank should be on par with that of the Delegate. This way, the Voice could create or disband ministries should the need arise. The Governors shouldn't be chosen by the Delegate either. He already has the Guardians working with the Governors. It would make more sense if applications went to an "Application Officer of the Voice" who would handle the application procedure with the Voice, then they went to the Voice itself to see which one's passed there, and finally to the Advocate for the final choice. Or perhaps to the Advocate first and then to the Voice in more of an appointment and confirmation style setup. And to be clear, in this proposal, the Minister of Legislative RP position does not exist, correct? Yes, since evidently I am the source of all TWP's troubles my position is being removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 to be clear, in this proposal, the Minister of Legislative RP position does not exist, correct? As far as I understood, no. URA would need to confirm. Otherwise, your suggestions are pretty good, again, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TunApocalypse Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I still don't see why everyone is so upset about Vlagh, he didn't do anything wrong. URA did. Dont kill the messenger, people. Elegarth and Darkesia 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URAP Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 URA did indeed do the evil and Vlagh was only the messenger. I could remove his position if it was that much of an issue, but I do not honestly believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hariko Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 That's actually a good idea. Nice job, Fujai. And no, there isn't a Minister of Legislative RP in there. But you'll have to ask the Delegate to know for sure, my apologies. Now, the main reason why the Voice got disbanded was a lack of activity. As I've mentioned to the Guardians earlier, in order to keep the government working smoothly, I highly recommend being mindful of the amount of ministries the Advocate creates. Because we tend to have less activity than other feeders, we should treat activity like a resource and not spread people too thin. When it comes to ministries, it would be best if those ministries were about key matters and that there were multiple people in a department in order to keep things running even if some people go inactive. I can tell you, it's difficult trying to run a ministry alone, because the work falls completely on you and you're the only one spreading the word about new projects that need the community's support. Edit: Aw man, I've been ninja'd. Typing on a phone is really slow, lol. Fujai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URAP Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Also, the Advocate cannot be on par with the delegate. Good Max gave us no such way for this to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujai Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I still don't see why everyone is so upset about Vlagh, he didn't do anything wrong. URA did. Dont kill the messenger, people. People weren't upset with Vlagh personally (that I know of, at least), rather they were up in arms about the fact that the Delegate had the power to dissolve the forum government at the snap of his fingers (after lots of deliberation, of course). It undermines the whole idea of having a separate and independent forum government. Also, the Advocate cannot be on par with the delegate. Good Max gave us no such way for this to happen. What I meant by this is that the Delegate would be the leader of the in-game government, and the Advocate would be the leader of the forum government, not that the Advocate would have Delegate-like powers in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hariko Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What Tuna said. If the Delegate were superior to the Advocate, that would imply that the Guardians are more important than the Voice. They aren't. Both are equal and separate. Please don't forget that. And no, I do not approve of the Delegate's ability to dissolve a government that is independent of it. I still don't think the whole dissolution was completely legal, but what's done is done, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Do you want me to introduce the changes in the current proposal text, or do a next text, URA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URAP Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Introduce the changes, I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hariko Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I don't know what URA would say (shocking, right?), but I think it would be best to edit the original text in red. ... Ninja'd again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Ok, give me a bit then... I'll do it soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Ok, since this is an ongoing discussion, I've edited the main text and made a note for final versions as we discuss things along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujai Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 If the Voice will choose the Governors, then shouldn't the Advocate outrank the Governors, so that it is the forumside equivalent of the Delegate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts