Hariko Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 That wasn't originally part of the plan, but if the changes are going to be made, then yes, it would make sense to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Yes and no. The Voice, as a whole, outranks them all - including its advocate - but ideally, the Advocate's role is representation and coordination, not oversight and supervision. If the advocate is ranked ABOVE the governors, then the departments are also under his oversight, mixing again the executive part and the legislative part, and with it, you get to the same problem of an inactive advocate potentially killing all decision making. My opinion is that the Advocate, as a serving members of The Voice, be considered on the same rank as the Governors. Again, the consultative body called the Voice is the oversight, not the person who embodies its will. This is: is not the advocate who hires or fires people. Is the Voice as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujai Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Yes and no. The Voice, as a whole, outranks them all - including its advocate - but ideally, the Advocate's role is representation and coordination, not oversight and supervision. If the advocate is ranked ABOVE the governors, then the departments are also under his oversight, mixing again the executive part and the legislative part, and with it, you get to the same problem of an inactive advocate potentially killing all decision making. My opinion is that the Advocate, as a serving members of The Voice, be considered on the same rank as the Governors. Again, the consultative body called the Voice is the oversight, not the person who embodies its will. This is: is not the advocate who hires or fires people. Is the Voice as a whole. I see now, that makes sense. The Advocate is basically just a chairman. My only concern with the whole Voice running the show (and this problem has been observed in many political systems without an executive branch) is that it will be slow and clunky when trying to address day-to-day issues and emergencies. Perhaps a council with rotating membership (only active members, though) could be there so there is no debate as to what the policy of the Voice is. Also, in the case of an inactive member in a leadership position, there could be an "Inactive Vote" where 2/3 of the Voice votes to replace said official with an interim replacement, and then another vote ending the replacementship (there's a better word for that, I just can't think of it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 I see now, that makes sense. The Advocate is basically just a chairman. My only concern with the whole Voice running the show (and this problem has been observed in many political systems without an executive branch) is that it will be slow and clunky when trying to address day-to-day issues and emergencies. Perhaps a council with rotating membership (only active members, though) could be there so there is no debate as to what the policy of the Voice is. Also, in the case of an inactive member in a leadership position, there could be an "Inactive Vote" where 2/3 of the Voice votes to replace said official with an interim replacement, and then another vote ending the replacementship (there's a better word for that, I just can't think of it). To address the first one, the Council could easily be made BY the Governors and the Advocate?? Is an idea, we could call it the Governor's Council. And to the second paragraph, is in my PENDING part: indictment or challenge system to remove them, not sure how to implement it or handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujai Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 To address the first one, the Council could easily be made BY the Governors and the Advocate?? Is an idea, we could call it the Governor's Council. That sounds like a good idea. A council headed by the Advocate as the representative for the Voice. There could also be rotating seats for members of the Voice. And to the second paragraph, is in my PENDING part: indictment or challenge system to remove them, not sure how to implement it or handle it. Honestly, I like my proposal better for inactivity. Indicting someone for being inactive sounds a little harsh (not to mention there's not legal system in this proposal). Although a challenge system sounds cool, perhaps a straight knowledge test, an election, something else maybe. A duel of sorts, perchance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Honestly, I like my proposal better for inactivity. Indicting someone for being inactive sounds a little harsh (not to mention there's not legal system in this proposal). Although a challenge system sounds cool, perhaps a straight knowledge test, an election, something else maybe. A duel of sorts, perchance? Technically, I left that part open, so your proposal is the first about it =D And a duel of sorts sounds interesting, doesn't it? But how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Badger Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I really like what I'm reading here. Great job all! One thing I feel should be defined is powers of the delegacy to dissolve the government. I feel there should be certain defined occasions where the delegacy can void the government. Very specific! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consular Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I'm just going to throw this out there: These 'governor' type positions (as an aside I despise that name) give Guardians oversight of offsite government departments? That is firstly not the traditional role of the Guardian system at all - they are more like a security council than a pacific-esque senate. Secondly this seems to be leaning towards URA's continuing stance that the offsite government should be subject to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujai Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Technically, I left that part open, so your proposal is the first about it =D And a duel of sorts sounds interesting, doesn't it? But how. How indeed...A duel of puns, maybe? The duelists get a topic, and then they have to take turns making the best puns, and whoever submits first loses? I really like what I'm reading here. Great job all! One thing I feel should be defined is powers of the delegacy to dissolve the government. I feel there should be certain defined occasions where the delegacy can void the government. Very specific! I thought we had arrived at the conclusion that the Delegate would have no power to do that, and any problems with the Voice would have to be dealt with by the Voice, but I don't think that specifically went into the proposal. I'm just going to throw this out there: These 'governor' type positions (as an aside I despise that name) give Guardians oversight of offsite government departments? That is firstly not the traditional role of the Guardian system at all - they are more like a security council than a pacific-esque senate. Secondly this seems to be leaning towards URA's continuing stance that the offsite government should be subject to him. My interpretation is that the Governors are appointed by the Voice, and they work with the corresponding Guardian if there is one. That way the burden of the Ministries falls to two people instead of one, and they would work together to promote the Ministry. Elegarth and I discussed that there could be a council of the Governors and Advocate (plus others??) to help set policy and such for the offsite. The Delegate would have no power over what the Governors or the Voice choose to do. EDIT: If you don't like the name, then you should suggest a different one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consular Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Two people overseeing one ministry seems horridly bureaucratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujai Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Two people overseeing one ministry seems horridly bureaucratic. Potentially bureaucratic, but it also cuts down on inactivity, spreads the load, puts more people in government, and combines the knowledge and experience of two people into one Ministry. Hariko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 9, 2015 Author Share Posted September 9, 2015 Two people overseeing one ministry seems horridly bureaucratic.A little. They should coordinate the in-game and the off-site needs and goals for the overall improvement of the joint effort. I see how that can be a problem, but the day to day job should be spearheaded by the Governor, as you say the guardian's primary job is security of the delegacy, this will be an extra thing, as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Badger Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Two people overseeing one ministry seems horridly bureaucratic. Agreed. Guardian as an in game position should have limited authority in the offsite government. Another idea to help with what Hari Addressed with the job being too big for one person. And it could help with temporary, announced inactivity due to RL. We could have a Lieutenant Governor to assist with the job and fill in when necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consular Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Mhmm. I'm just going to reiterate that 'governor' is a horrible name then. Try something that seems more thematically appropriate for TWP maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fujai Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 We could have a Lieutenant Governor to assist with the job and fill in when necessary. Yes. 1000 times yes. That's a fantastic idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Badger Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Mhmm. I'm just going to reiterate that 'governor' is a horrible name then. Try something that seems more thematically appropriate for TWP maybe? Ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hariko Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I've already mentioned this elsewhere: [Elegarth]'s asking if a province is an actual satellite region or just another name for a government department. Governor implies that someone is ruling over a subnational geographic entity, while what I think you're referring to is a department head, in which case, a chairman or director would be a more accurate term. Sound good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consular Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Yeah that would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Badger Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I like these ideas better. But perhaps something less bureaucractic sounding. Here are some synonyms of guardian: attendant, baby-sitter, bird dog, cerberus, champion, chaperon, chaperone, conservator, cop, curator, custodian, defender, escort, guard, keeper, nurse, overseer, paladin, patrol, preserver, safeguard, sentinel, shepherd, sitter, sponsor, superintendent, supervisor, trustee, vigilante, warden, watchdog Maybe even different names for the different positions like: Warden of the military. Sentinel of standards, Preserver of Culture. Fujai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hariko Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 attendant, baby-sitter, bird dog, cerberus, champion, chaperon, chaperone, conservator, cop, curator, custodian, defender, escort, guard, keeper, nurse, overseer, paladin, patrol, preserver, safeguard, sentinel, shepherd, sitter, sponsor, superintendent, supervisor, trustee, vigilante, warden, watchdog Cerberus! Yes, yes, yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachmaland Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Vice-Delegate is only meant to be used as a secondary communication tool and decision malingr in case of justified delegate absence. If a Vice-Delegate position is intended only for stuff done during justified delegate absence, and most people wouldn't want an extra layer added in leadership because it makes them feel that the only practical outcome is that they're further distanced from the Delegate, then I propose that we just nominate one Guardian position to be a Senior Guardian (in a "first among equals" sense) appointed by the Delegate and assuming said tasks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 It is all well and good to introduce yet another system with even more positions to be filled but at the end of the day, how effective is this going to be when we couldn't keep people active enough to support a simpler system? You can decry my position and what I have done all you wish, but given another four months do you think the pandering to the handful of whiners will actually result in a successful system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 randomness I think you should let the govt. on the forum choose it's own form as long as it proclaims it's fealty to the Delegate and the Guardians. unless of course this is a revolutionary govt. then revolt away. there is no reason to have Governors and Ministers and Advocates, is this an attempt to give roles to promote activity? ok fine, pick one, call the Advocates so you don't sound as if you're setting up a NPO colony, if you're doing that why wouldn't the players just go to the Pacific? When I said something about a Union that was two independent regions acting in concert to project a proper image, images are important in branding. RP on the forum, general silliness on general, does military exist anymore in the game? are the ways to get activity going. That and the Delegate needs to double as Entertainment Chairman. Malviet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhang Bhang Duc Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What a complete and utter cluster. Bureaucratic, controlling - I've seen some misguided attempts at forming a government and constitution in my time in TWP, but this just about takes the cake. pandering to the handful of whiners Your mask is slipping Vlagh. Malviet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What a complete and utter cluster. Bureaucratic, controlling - I've seen some misguided attempts at forming a government and constitution in my time in TWP, but this just about takes the cake. Your mask is slipping Vlagh. Not really, I have never believed that a sitting Delegate should let a vocal minority overrule their decisions. Bhang Bhang Duc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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