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Just a note: What ever you decide, Halo. ~for the love of all that is holy, I'm begging you; do not go with anime or kpop or any of that weeb stuff. I can happily adjust to almost anything but that. I can't bear the discord channels that have been consumed by it.~ But in reality, you are the Delegate. It's your choice. This sort of seeps into the other area of your changes. (The desire to add a Senate level to the off-site government structure) If you are waiting for complete consensus on something, it will never happen. So, if you think the peanut gallery is being difficult now, just wait until you try to tie legislation to arguments from two separate bodies full of strong, intelligent opinionated players. I am not passing judgement of right or wrong. I'm just reminding us all of the difference between expectations and reality.

Let me state for the record that TWP will never become anything even close to TEP. Let me also say that the idea that if TWP adopts a Japanese theme, that does not and should not ever be seen as a bad thing that will lead to an influx of memers, disrespectful types of any kind, or any kind of individual that we wouldn't normally banject on the reg. I think too many people have let the bad "weeaboo" kids ruin the image and idea of a Japanese theme, but it's important to remember that there's more to Japan than Anime and J-Pop, just as China isn't all about kung fu and Mauism. :^) I had an idea to adopt a fun and promising environment that reflected Japan's Bubble Economy of the 80's, complete with the aesthetics as you can see by my flag. (And I'm aware that's not exactly "imperial Japan but it's what I was feeling so I went with it lol.) To give some background on the general culture of the Bubble Era, it was a time in Japan when its economy was at its peak and commercial success was high for many people. There are a certain feel and mood that's strongly present in many media depicting 80's Japan, that paints a picture of the good old days. It wasn't too far off from what the 80's was like here in the US. I wanted to try and take the key aspects that made Bubble Era special and incorporate them into a theme, allowing us to leave a good first impression with those who come to our region. I wouldn't have sold them short either. I would do anything to give them something reminiscent of the high spirits and energy that was everpresent in 80's Japan. This coupled with a nice retro look would pull in many people. Especially as it relates to Japan. A lot more people now than ever are falling in love with Late 20th Century Japanese culture, it's been growing in popularity for over the last decade, and doesn't show any sign of stopping; nostalgia is very easy to market. Now with all that being said, TWP wouldn't be "80's Japan," it would be TWP but with the characteristics and overall environment present in 80's Japan. I agree with keeping our coastal beach idea, but adding in a more fun, active, and promising vibe to it along with retro imagery. Anyway, that's my two-cents as it relates to my theme. I know the other two are quite different. But now I've spilled my beans and explained my thought process with my theme a bit, hopefully, it may be to more people's liking.

I have a crazy idea. *watches everyone roll their eyes* Flags: I love the dragon flag where the dragon is clinging to the back of the sun for the Regional WFE flag. I have always been partial to dragons and love them in all their literary and film adaptations. I also really like the stamp-like, trendy flag that was Kawaii's, I think. I like it because it looks like a stamp. If we added a relief of words (or a dragon?) in the top part of the sun, it could easily be used as an FA seal for treaties and dispatches. I dislike the first group of flags because they remind me too much of the Kaiser and WWI sensibilities. However, I have always wanted to rp-live in Imperial Russia. Which brings me to ... Titles: I dislike all of them and their forms of address. But not the idea of titles and some designations. I think we (the region) can do better if we drink some wine and argue about it one evening. I would like to ask that the Heir apparent designation be removed from the lists for a number of reasons we can argue about another time.

That would be a good thing, I'd think. *chuckles* Bunch of rogues......The Syndicate (oh wait, a region already did that), The Western Cartel. The Rogue Gallery of The West Pacific.... I don't know if anyone knew this, but once upon a time I was looking to establish a Rogue Pirate military, sailing across all the Pacifics, unaffiliated with any of them. There were two or three missions these unknown Pirates engaged in across The Pacifics, but never really got fully off the ground. I smiled when TWPAF went Pirate, I was proud of you all. Exactly. Of course, if The Delegate wishes to pursue a process/debate/choice beyond that.......that's The Delegate's choice too. On the other hand, if.... And no pink with purple polka dots WFE. I see a region that does that and I immediate click elsewhere. Have some respect for your viewer/readers and be easy on the eyes. Yup. You'll be sorry. You'll be frustrated. NS isn't worth the high blood pressure. I tend agree with this. I'm still waiting for a presentation of sufficient cause for change, and where that change might apply, how it will be applied...... Although, had the Delegate simply announced "here is our new Theme!" I'd accept the Delegate wanting a change as reason enough. (That doesn't mean I'd agree with or like the change) I can't fully address this, I'm not on Discord so I don't know what the real activity level is here. Also, the period of the Holidays into February is always slow. The ebb and flow of NS. A theme change isn't sufficient to drive activity to combat staleness. Action is what drives change, and that action comes from the region's Leaders, not the theme. Partially why Pirates is worth considering.....the military is active, the military is Pirate. I don't see that theme being promulgated on the RMB or via mass TG, so it feels detached from the region as a whole. Integrating Pirate into the theme would meld the two together better in player's minds. (Psychology), tying the civilian and the military into a whole. Whenever the civilian government is closely tied to the military and military/diplomatic activities, it drives interest and activity. When a civilian government begins to ignore it's military, it will progressively go inactive. Unless is has another strong area (such as RP) to supplant the military activity. There does seem to be less interaction with the region ingame these days. And obviously little interaction on the forum. I don't do Discord, so I have no idea there. I feel like Non-Discord players have been locked out of activity by the regional Oligarchies. Never ever EVER EVER allow a higher legislative body. NEVER. If it has no power, no one will participate - there will be nothing to do. If it has too much power, I guarantee you will eventually have a conflict with the Delegate. This is where the balancing act of TWP comes into play. Let's not go to RL national themes at all. The Rising Sun of the TWP flag used to bother me all by itself as it was too suggestive of WWII Japan. I'm old, grew up with those veterans, knew WWI vets. My grandfathers were both considered National Security assets, my daughter's maternal great grandfather was a private American citizen, captured as a POW by the Japanese and he died in malnourished captivity, his body never recovered. (I knew a US Civil War vet - at his 100th birthday he said of his imprisonment as a POW that the prisoners "ate as well as the guards. All we had to eat was grasshoppers.") Although no NS theme insulted me more than The NPO's Soviet theme. Made me sick to my stomach after growing up at nuclear ground zero for the Cold War. Let's not promote RL murderous regimes (such as Imperial Japan, Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany.....). I lived through that time, the 80's sucked. Don't do 70's Japan, back then Japan was known for flimsy cheap throw away products. (Like China is known for now). *chuckles* I like your flag design best of the choices, but I don't like it's color scheme. I'd prefer to keep our flag, or alter it slightly, than a wholesale change. I won't like it, whatever it is, if the theme design abandons our 15 year flag.

For pirates, I was thinking more of a Pirates of the Caribbean style, nevermind that it's wildly historically inaccurate. The delegate could have the position of Pirate King/Queen/what have you, the guardians being their immediate officers, and the ministers being captains of their respective ministries. I agree that we don't want to go for a militaristic feel, but a more whimsical one. That being said, I do feel like the theme options are a bit too regimented, though well put together, in their current states.

I agree with you, Dave, that The Hall of Nations could use the work and also that this would most likely pass, but I'm not presenting The Hall of Peers to the Hall for approval because I don't want to start the precedent that all Manners changes have to be approved by The Hall of Nations. I did want everyone's input, though, which is why I brought this all up for discussion in the first place.

I have avoided publicly commenting on these changes because I wanted to let the process play itself out organically. However... I understand Halo's reasons for trying a theme and I'm willing to give it a chance. As Westwind has shown, themes and ways of doing things can change over time. The Ele/Badger/Davelands/Neenee era of TWP was theme-less, maybe Halo will begin a themed era. Or not. If it doesn't work out it can easily be changed or removed. I agree that it is 100% Halo's decision. He could wake up tomorrow and declare that we are now "TWP In Space" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmI77ZBeJrQ ) and go forward with that theme. But it's a better thing that he is asking for all this input. Maybe, like Dark said, we are close to something really good. Maybe some flexibility is in order by all sides. But, one thing that I am against is the decision to add the Peers based on the whim of the Delegate. This is exactly the type of thing we created the Hall of Nations for. Honestly, if the Delegate proposed a change like this and it was debated and voted on by the Hall, there is almost no chance of it failing, so why not let them do it? It's been almost a year since the Hall did anything of substance besides run elections. If you wanted to spur activity then that would be a great way to start. And I agree with Badger that Westwind's graphics were an amazing look back into the past.

BTW Westwind, I loved the historic graphics that you posted earlier. The "Illuminati" eye reminded me of @Kawaii

Sounds interesting! Where do I sign up to be an ambassador?

A Model United Nations sounds like fun. Once upon a time long ago when I was in High School, there was a Student Congress that competed at Forensics meets across the state. I was the Lead of my school's House Delegation, and served as Presiding Officer most meets. It was a blast. Unfortunately, most meets were required to go by Sequential Debate rather than Open Debate - I performed better with Open Debate. I remember writing Legislation on Decriminalization of Victimless Crimes and Judicial System Reform among others. In NS, I would suggest participation in regional Legislatures/Assemblies, debates in the General Assembly/Security Council World Assembly forums ingame, and signing up as an Ambassador. Good luck to you, and welcome!

Thanks, Dark. Yes, I re-worked the Manners changes from what I originally had to make it quite clear that the Hall of Peers is advisory only. I do not want a situation like what happened in the past. ... and we will not go with anything weeb or anime, even if Japan is selected. That's all too much for me too!

The reason is that things are getting stale in the region. Your changes were terrific, but that was about two years ago. TWP is, in my opinion, the best region in NS, but we are not retaining the new players and we are having problems with TWPAF recruiting as well. A new theme ... among other things ... is our attempt to spur interest and reverse the course before it slides too far.

There is an idea here somewhere. I can feel it starting to come together. I love the way TWP can just start rambling on and suddenly we all shout, "Yes!" as the perfect idea makes itself known. We're almost there. I'm seeing: Fun, strong but not militaristic (except the military, of course), elements of fantasy prevalent, titles that are practical and descriptive, keep the current colors. Also seeing... Pirates, yes! Pirates, no! Hmmm... Maybe this translates to: We want to retain the idea of being a bunch of rogue personalities gathered together and loyal to one another. It's just a guess on my part. But I know we are getting close. Keep arguing it out! This group never ceases to make me proud.

I should still have the database kicking around....Dreamhost recently updated the server's php version, so I suspect that probably broke it for viewing....I'll give it a look when I have some spare time.

I agree wholeheartedly about the names. It makes it a bit harder for me to fill out diplomatic reports on Osiris since the Viziers all have silly titles like "Sandwich Enforcer" on the Osiris region page. I can still figure out who's who by looking on their regional forum to find out their real titles (Vizier of Gameside Affairs, Sub-Vizier of Community Affairs, etc.), but it would be a nightmare for me if all of their real titles were, in fact, names like Sandwich Enforcer or Pebble. I can imagine there would be a lot of confusion amongst members of our region if our gov officials' titles were "Czarveich" or "Kung" or "ChiangChun."

Anything that drives healthy activity is a good thing IMHO. I see nothing wrong with an attempt to give the region a cultural theme and I applaud the creative work being done by the region's residents. That said. Can we get an option for an in-game theme that doesn't involve memorizing new titles, please? Can the Delegate and Ministers still have titles that clearly state what they do? the one thing that really irks me about the themed regions is the crazy titles everyone has. I need a glossary to figure out who has what job in Osiris for example.

Accepted! Welcome aboard.

NationStates Nation Name: Danlina Discord User Name: RedManlyUnicorn#5649 Your Local Timezone: IST (UTC+2) Regions You Have Active Nations In: The West Pacific, Osiris (I don't use this player anymore but it's still active) Any Diplomatic Experience:  Elementary school debate classes, high school MUN club, currently working on two legislation proposals for general assembly.

*chuckles* I've no doubt! In the US, some people did very well, and some did very poorly. The economy didn't soar as some would make it seem, instead it fell back several times. I remember the storefronts suddenly going empty across the cities a couple times. The music sucked. Government spending to defeat the Soviets provided jobs, but took it's toll by taking resources from other parts of the economy. The Decade of Greed wasn't universal, it was only a section that flaunted it with their suits and cocaine which Hollywood loves to portray, the corruption of the Keating Five, Iran/Contra, 1987 Black Friday market crash, Savings and Loan crisis..... A friend of mine and I were driving around downtown Kansas City in the '80's and we noticed these businessmen marching around the sidewalks in their grey suits as if they owned the world. We'd try to talk to them or at least get their attention. They wouldn't even respond to saying a simple 'Hi!" The thing that finally got their attention? We called out "Dollar Bills!" and they all turned their heads in unison to look our way. It was hilarious. Silly human race. These businessmen walking shoulder to shoulder, three people wide.....we decided that The Who nailed it. "Eminence Front. It's a put on." (the rhythm/beat of the song perfectly matched the businessmens purposeful steps) *winks*

The Ambassador sign-up thread is here:

My reference to 80's Japan is mainly to point out the culture and environment of Japan that was present at its time. The main point I was making was to give TWP the same kind of feeling which new people see as being fun, bright, and promising. Also, sorry, westwind, but Japan's 80's was the most happening place in the world! Regardless, my focus is more of creating a bright and fun atmosphere, and the promise of a fulfilling NS career that outputs ten-fold given one's hard work and dedication. Design-wise, it probably really doesn't matter too much, but I'd like to try and go for a retro look, that's what's "in" these days as I mentioned. The designing itself wouldn't seek to outright replace any aspect of TWP, but would try to put a tasteful spin on it. As for the color scheme, I had used the same colors as the traditional flag but up'd the vibrance to make it bloom. If it's too much, I can tune them down a bit. That's not a bad idea, either! I could make a stamp graphic like that too, and using them for the FA would be a wonderful touch! Thanks for the suggestion!

Done!

The reason we are not retaining new players and TWPAF is struggling has very little to do with the theme. It has to do with tangible govt activity, engaging nations, and helping nations find purpose in the region.

I am not afraid of change. I want the change to be compelled by a good reason. I don't feel like a good reason has been presented. A theme change alone will not spur lasting activity. There has been no discussion of how the individual themes will be utilized to do things. We've had a Guardian say that they won't use the titles. So what will be used? One theme is a flag only. And while it is better than anything I can make, it doesn't really feel like the flag of a feeder. It has a frenetic look with an 80's feel. Not sure that it all goes together. The russian and chinese themes have different iconology that don't really feel like the region. I'm nervous that if we adapt the Chinese or Japanese themes that we will take over the mantle of the Weeb Pacific. The mess that created in TEP was a massive cleanup. I truly like the idea of a non-RL country theme. I can understand if some people don't like or are tired of the pirate thing. But to adapt a RL culture is going to have a change on TWP. It would be abhorrent to make it something that wasn't TWP. Y'all ministers and guardians did a ton of work. Perhaps allowing the citizenry to work on ideas and make presentations would be good idea? Or at least to flesh out some ideas. Something as important as a theme change shouldn't be taken lightly.

Not to mention that the other thread is citizens-only.

Thanks, Medio! Let's just continue the discussion here, since most of the comments have been here.

Well, finally I have gone through the plethora of offerings from both threads. My first thought is that as a region we need to do something to get new players actually involved rather than hovering around the edges before fluttering off to do their own thing. I have to say, however, that I am not a keen fan of any of the themes presented and agree with Fujai that a great option would be to extend the Pirate theme which does not clash with TWP's past history of being a non-RL themed region. I have an abhorrence of lengthy titles for those in Ministries or positions of authority which smack of NGO titles, and believe we should keep titles short and sweet. Second, and I have a personal leaning towards Badger's thoughts of that... less is more... for the changes but would be perfectly happy for changes that the younger, and therefore the future senior players of TWP, would like to see. P.S. Suggest we combine this thread with A New Theme for The West Pacific

Howdy! I want to start by saying both thank you and f--- you to Ark, Kawaii and OT for making this a hard choice. I like all three options and will be weighing each carefully in the next couple of days. But why the theme change at all? Why not stick with tradition? Well, what even is traditional for us? As Westy mentioned above, we have taken plenty of different directions on how we wish to theme our government. We started out as one of the key pillars of the ADN, and proudly were one of the most effective forces in defenderdom, never mind in-game. We experimented with different themes since then, be it a committee-structure when Eli couped that one time to the various themes Westy listed above. We have had a great past couple of years and I don't think anyone wants to tarnish that legacy. Rather, updates and new priorities, such as the theme, peerage, point system, and Ministry of Education, can be made to help make us a better region. What doesn't change are our core values. Delegate supremacy, meritocracy and community do not change. What matters most is that we have a fun time here and allow newer folks the chance to feel welcome and able to learn from those of us who should honestly be NS dead by now. There is a lot of work to be done on both sides, myself included. I like the idea of a new theme. Right now as I mentioned above I'm not sure which way I'll vote, but I like having options. Our Delegate has made it clear that not all presented aspects will be included in the final theme design, which is good because we can talk about what is good about the general idea and what might need to be nixed. I echo the concerns raised about changing the titles of Delegate and Guardian. I certainly don't mind there to be a title made for them and other ranks, but I probably will still use Guardian as my job title We don't need to go hardcore on the titles, but it is nice to have our own regional way of describing who we are. What we get with that is more of a cultural identity. I'm not necessarily saying that we'd get up to such status with a theme change, but I preferred the communist-themed Pacific over the bunny-themed Pacific.

That is such a treat, Westwind! Whoa! TWP's history is one of my favorites to hear about. Always do silly and fun. TWP has always been a region that made things their own, I love it. Also I finally found the other thread people were talking in. xD I just commented on the legislation one. My vote was for Imperialist China. Though now I'm sad no one tried to enforce Klingon TWP, I definitely would have voted for that instead. I'm really sad to see some of these older TWP folks discouraging this newer generation from making things their own and investing in a vision for TWP on their terms! Badger sees TWP as a laid back beach vibe, but clearly that's not what anyone was going for when TWP was a Klingon crazyland. Giving newer generations an opportunity to invest in their region is really important. If you're not going to grow with TWP, then it can't be the TWP that you envisioned forever. It has to be the TWP that reaches out to the people investing in it right now, y'know? I get the discomfort. But I feel like these new themes do definitely keep classic TWP elements in them - like the colors didn't go anywhere! - while letting the TWP of the present make their own mark on the region. They need a history too. Also I agree with Dark about confusing names and keeping them clear at least on Gameside. Regions with hard themes are great, but hard to decipher for FA purposes or for new people if they're not pretty well spelled out in like, RO titles or at least a Dispatch somewhere.

More old Graphics....I'll spoiler them to spare the thread.

I changed themes two or three times during my Delegacy. We started out sort of Dune based with the Laandstrad for the Assembly. But no one could remember how to spell it. *chuckles* Later went to the Sacred Order of The West Pacific and The West Pacific Imperium. Policies stayed the same, graphics stayed the same. The theme is just a costume you put on In the end, it's delegate's choice IMO. I mearly added to titles for my themes, so a Minister became Holy Minister and a Guardian became a Cardinal Guardian. In Equilism we went through a period when we changed the theme with each government. By the time they'd gotten to a Game of Thrones theme, they lost me as I didn't know anything about it (still don't) - so was all meaningless to me. Houses, titles, all irrelevant and confusing to me. I like the dragon imagery in the graphics proposal. You can tie that to TWP having had two Delegates associated with Dragons. You could take the Eagle and Crossbones flag and replace the Eagle with a Dragon. I gotta admit, I haven't been fond of TWPAF flags for some time. I think folks are too resistant to making use of the ingame polling. This would still be somewhat restrictive, but it would cast a wider net than the forum and still would be secure: Set the poll to both Native and Large Nation - it will prevent nations from other regions jumping in to vote, and prevent new founded nations from voting. (A nation would have to be about 6 months old to vote...a nation voting age requirement based on game mechanics). You could even form a bi-cameral legislature: ingame based on those polling rules (House), and Hall of Peers voting (Senate), Delegate has veto authority. Although, having a bi-cameral legislature is what got TWP into trouble before. The Senate becomes and exclusionary old boys club that eventually goes inactive and blocks the Delegate (I've seen this movie before) *chuckles* Nothing. I've championed more open citizenship, and removed citizenship oaths when I was delegate. It was never a problem. I haven't been a TWP citizen since oaths were reintroduced. So I'm just being me.

One of the reasons TWPAF benefited from its pirate theme was because that theme is well suited to West Pacifican culture. I'm all for a rebranding of TWP, as I've made plenty clear before, but making something it other than TWP doesn't make any sense. There's no reason we should be taking things from RL cultures that aren't ours when we have a perfectly good one right here in TWP. The theme should reflect TWP, not the other way around. One can say that a new theme won't affect our culture, except it undoubtedly will. If done correctly, all mentions of TWP in government, documentation, and conversation would include the new language, and of the active members it will please some, do nothing to others, and irritate others. New nations will feel its influence even more strongly, as they wouldn't know anything else. Not to mention, if a theme either doesn't change or doesn't reflect the culture, then what's the point? People could just ignore it and all of this effort and discussion would be for naught. To that extent, I'm not in favor of any of the themes presented, and I think we have a lot more to gain from expanding TWPAF's pirate theme for the rest of the region. It's unique, easy to understand, and meshes well with TWP's culture. On the whole I prefer when things are discussed as a region and not presented to us after closed door discussions. Were I forced to choose from the three, however, Kawaii's Shogunate Japan theme seemed the best. Being open ended and more in favor of a reskin as opposed to something larger makes it easier to adapt to our needs. Plus it includes the only flag of the bunch that was interesting to me. Overall, a TWP theme is the best theme.

It won’t be such an intense theme change as to change our culture or how we operate to match that of the country we’re themed after. I understand your point though. Halo specifically chose these theme options because they have coastlines along the western Pacific Ocean, however, so they do have a tangential connection. TWPAF will be keeping its pirate theme, it’s always been relatively independent when it comes to theming/stylization as long as I’ve been around. TWP proper, however, is neither pirate-themed nor Tahiti-themed like badger suggested. It is, like most of the feeders, theme-less with a general feel of a theme or culture that evolved over time. Which is something we took note of. Does TWP *need* a theme like UCRs or Sinkers? No, it doesn’t. And this theme change is disimilar to those for some very important reasons. Primarily, UCRs and Sinkers base their entire region and culture off of their themes. We do not. We are taking TWP’s existing culture and adding to it with the theme (which is almost entirely cosmetic aside from the Hall of Peers addition) that the delegate and region have agreed upon. Your impressions absolutely matter, Westwind, as do those of the nations gameside. However, I can think of no more secure way to vote for a theme than on the forums. I disapprove of sacrificing that security by holding a gameside poll, where the options are either WA nations (TWPAF and non-WA citizens can’t vote), “natives” (totally arbitrary residency requirement IIRC), or everyone (meaning that any other region could very well spam our poll and pick our theme for us). I do however, think it would be pertinent to advertise the theme change to the region so that they are at least aware that a theme change vote is occurring. As far as your comment about an oath, I don’t really know what to do about that. The existence of a citizenship oath isn’t up to me, nor do I think it’s particularly binding or restrictive.