Dramatic Legal Reform?!

[Darkesia]

I recommend replacing office names with Flintstone Character names during the drafting stage. It's a real trick I learned from editing academic papers. It keeps bias and assumption out of it. You can fight about names later and focus on the viability of the work.

[Eli]

I've always thought BamBam was cool

[Qartistan]

I understand that what you posted was just a small part of the project. I'm sorry if I came off as too demanding.

I can see now that some things I proposed are unnecessary, but my offer to help with the draft still stands.

[lemonpledge]

Love what you're doing Arch, a single constitution could simplify things a whole lot. Also, no complaints about what's written so far, keep up the great work.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

One thought Arch; instead of an elected Speaker, why not rotate it through the members?

It was something we tried in the old Town Council - gave everyone a chance at managing the Council and gaining experience in a senior post.

It's a good document, nicely put together. Con-Con IV anyone?

[Llamas]

One thought Arch; instead of an elected Speaker, why not rotate it through the members?

Doesn't sound like a good idea; the HGA is an open legislature, so if we make it rotated and give everyone a turn it will end up with some random newb who knows nothing about running a government at some point or another. If it were an appointed or elected legislature that was more exclusive, however, it could work.

[Reçueçn]

Doesn't sound like a good idea; the HGA is an open legislature, so if we make it rotated and give everyone a turn it will end up with some random newb who knows nothing about running a government at some point or another. If it were an appointed or elected legislature that was more exclusive, however, it could work.

I have to agree with llamas here. And as he knows, I'm opposed to any legislature that could be described as "more exclusive," so I think we will have to stick with elections.

[Llamas]

I have to agree with llamas here. And as he knows, I'm opposed to any legislature that could be described as "more exclusive," so I think we will have to stick with elections.

Actually, Rec, that's an idea that's been floating around in my head for a while; Instead of an appointed upper house, I am considering making the Upper House fully elected on the forums.

[Fratellnoir]

Where would this Assembly be convened?

[Reçueçn]

Actually, Rec, that's an idea that's been floating around in my head for a while; Instead of an appointed upper house, I am considering making the Upper House fully elected on the forums.

That seems like the most logical way to do it I've heard you propose yet!  

 

I still see absolutely no reason we would need an upper house. (They'd still both be on the forum, right? Then what's the point?)

[Llamas]

That seems like the most logical way to do it I've heard you propose yet!

 

I still see absolutely no reason we would need an upper house. (They'd still both be on the forum, right? Then what's the point?)

No, that's not the way I'd handle it. I'm expecting to make it like this:

1. Elected upper house on the forums which handles day-to-day normal stuff, passing laws, etc.

2. Assembly of all individuals in the in-game region which directly represents the peoples' will and balances the forums' power.

[That Called the Vlagh]

No, that's not the way I'd handle it. I'm expecting to make it like this:

1. Elected upper house on the forums which handles day-to-day normal stuff, passing laws, etc.

2. Assembly of all individuals in the in-game region which directly represents the peoples' will and balances the forums' power.

I believe #2 is called the Regional Message Board.

[Llamas]

I believe #2 is called the Regional Message Board.

No, not at all... The RMB is not given any actual power over policy.

[Elegarth]

I think that what Vlagh meant is that the "2. Assembly of all individuals in the in-game region" exists in the form of the RMB; currently, it is not given power.

Now well, since the in-forum government holds no power or relationship with the in-game, why would they need to have any form of power that balances the "forum's" powers? They are not part of the forum government, and the in-game is not part of our jurisdiction...

[cluntobone]

No, that's not the way I'd handle it. I'm expecting to make it like this:

1. Elected upper house on the forums which handles day-to-day normal stuff, passing laws, etc.

2. Assembly of all individuals in the in-game region which directly represents the peoples' will and balances the forums' power.

Frankly I think the legislature should be composed of all the residents like the HGA is/was currently.

[Eli]

I am opposed to the exclusionary tactics that reduce input of region players just because they don't get 'elected', that is a tactic of the false democracies.

 

 

If they sign up they're in, that is TWP style.

[URAP]

I am opposed to the exclusionary tactics that reduce input of region players just because they don't get 'elected', that is a tactic of the false democracies.

 

 

If they sign up they're in, that is TWP style.

Amen.

Unless they have a sketchy background.

Then no.

[Hariko]

I don't care what they're doing outside TWP so long as they are genuinely loyal to TWP.

[URAP]

I don't care what they're doing outside TWP so long as they are genuinely loyal to TWP.

Right, but it's hard to tell.

[Cormac]

I think having an in-game "lower house" sounds nice in theory, but is a nightmare to implement in practice. If it were as easy as just waving a wand and doing it, most regions in NationStates would have that kind of structure. As it stands, there are few regions that take legislative votes directly to in-game residents.

 

Can you imagine trying to organize votes for all in-game residents? If you do it on the RMB, the RMB would be dominated by that rather than by the casual, friendly discussions that usually take place there, and it would be -- I hate to keep using this word, but it's what comes to mind -- a nightmare trying to scroll back through the RMB to make sure you're getting all the votes. This isn't even to mention the difficulty in dealing with the possibility of multiple nations controlled by the same player voting, and how you would screen for that. Or how much you'd be annoying casual players who have no interest in regional government, who have as much a right to live in TWP in peace without being bombarded with constant votes as those who like regional government have a right to pursue what they enjoy.

 

This is an idea that I think might work in a region of 60, or maybe even 600. But a region of 6,000? It's not practical.

 

On a separate note, is the Prime Minister going to open separate threads for different aspects of regional governance? That's how I've usually seen constitutional conventions work.

[Eli]

I think you misunderstood, the way I understood it ( and perhaps I'm wrong) was that membership in the lower house was automatic if a member of the region and in the WA, and the nation had notified us of their intent to participate.

 

 

If not, then well I'm wrong a lot.

 

 

Obviously that wasn't stated but it was the only way I could conceive, it working at all.

[Cormac]

I think you misunderstood, the way I understood it ( and perhaps I'm wrong) was that membership in the lower house was automatic if a member of the region and in the WA, and the nation had notified us of their intent to participate.

 

 

If not, then well I'm wrong a lot.

 

 

Obviously that wasn't stated but it was the only way I could conceive, it working at all.

 

That would be more workable, as WA membership at least screens out multiple nations controlled by the same player. I'm still confused on how votes would be gathered though. If it's anything that requires them to go off-site, then they might as well just join this forum and participate in the assembly hosted on the forum, if they're interested. If we would be gathering their votes via the RMB, I think that would be really disruptive of the RMB.

 

I guess it would be best to hear from Llamas the exact logistics of how he envisions this working, otherwise we can't really decide whether it's practical.

[Nox]

My WA jumps a lot, Occidius was a puppet to begin with, but perhaps if they've been around long enough and aren't obviously malicious sleepers for god knows what, exceptions could be made?

[That Called the Vlagh]

Since we are an exclusively offsite government, why not make a complete system like once existed within the old Meritocracy?  Obviously we would forego the election process and make Senate membership voluntary but we could perhaps incorporate some of the structures here.

 

I hesitate to copy those structures for review because they are admittedly complicated and if we are looking solely for a system that is simple that may not be the best course of action.

[Llamas]

That would be more workable, as WA membership at least screens out multiple nations controlled by the same player. I'm still confused on how votes would be gathered though. If it's anything that requires them to go off-site, then they might as well just join this forum and participate in the assembly hosted on the forum, if they're interested. If we would be gathering their votes via the RMB, I think that would be really disruptive of the RMB.

 

I guess it would be best to hear from Llamas the exact logistics of how he envisions this working, otherwise we can't really decide whether it's practical.

Llama logistics time! We Llamas are good for logistics. We are bred pack animals, after all.

1. Voting will be done using polls, not the RMB.

2. The Lower House will not have to vote on every individual law or bill. This prevents the aforementioned scenario of excessive debating/argument on the RMB overwhelming the light, friendly banter. Instead, votes would be held under specific circumstances to give the people of TWP the ability to overrule the upper house. A good example to give you an idea of what I mean: Let's say that the Prime Minister proposes a bill before the HGA that is then shot down or takes far too long to go to vote. In this case, the forum government is holding back reform and progress. In order to force the HGA into action, the Prime Minister could propose to hand the bill over to the lower house instead and hold a public plebiscite on it, and if the bill receives support from a majority of the region, it'll pass, allowing for less bureaucracy, faster action, and a more democratic government in TWP.

3. Voting will be limited to WA residents who have been in the region and WA for at least 2 weeks, to make puppet-flooding from abroad nearly impossible. Exceptions would be made under certain circumstances, such as if a resident can prove that they are a member of a military (Which would not let them keep their WA here for 2 weeks at a time) or are WA-immobile for a good reason.

4. I'm considering simply making the upper house consist of everyone on the forums, to make things simpler and less prone to oligarchy; I'd prefer an elected upper house or an appointed one instead, however. The system I consider to be best would be one similar to TEP's Magisterium: Instead of being either appointed or elected, it consists of those who are active and dedicated on the forums; it's like our HGA, but with tougher requirements such as minimum post counts and a decent average post count per month.