Cormac

I am opposed to making it the duty of the executive council to write the legislation--I think any TWP resident should be able to write legislation and have it discussed. Your compromise--getting signatures on petitions to send it to a vote--is really just re-naming our rules of procedure in the HGA--getting seconds on drafts to move them to a vote.
 
There are also other reasons I think the government should stay on the forum--it gives the forum purpose, and streamlines government a lot, not only when it comes to voting, but mainly communication in general--besides factbooks, TGs, and the RMB, there's not really anywhere well adapted to the kind of discussion needed for writing or debating legislation.
 
Finally, the forum government is completely separate from the in-game government, as has been said many times. That being the case, if what is currently the forum government migrated in-game, as per this proposal, there would be absolutely nothing from stopping me, and others who think like-wise, from setting up an entirely new forum government with exactly the same powers as the old one. (In fact, as has been mentioned a couple times recently, we could do that right now and have multiple forum governments. It makes sense to me, however, to keep a single forum government.) We could run the in-forum embassies and be self-governing, which is pretty much all we can do now anyways. I realize this may sound like a threat ("Leave the forums and I'll start a splinter group!") but it's not supposed to be. I'm just trying to say that I think the forums are best adapted to running a government, and would like to stay here.

I think having an in-game "lower house" sounds nice in theory, but is a nightmare to implement in practice. If it were as easy as just waving a wand and doing it, most regions in NationStates would have that kind of structure. As it stands, there are few regions that take legislative votes directly to in-game residents.
 
Can you imagine trying to organize votes for all in-game residents? If you do it on the RMB, the RMB would be dominated by that rather than by the casual, friendly discussions that usually take place there, and it would be -- I hate to keep using this word, but it's what comes to mind -- a nightmare trying to scroll back through the RMB to make sure you're getting all the votes. This isn't even to mention the difficulty in dealing with the possibility of multiple nations controlled by the same player voting, and how you would screen for that. Or how much you'd be annoying casual players who have no interest in regional government, who have as much a right to live in TWP in peace without being bombarded with constant votes as those who like regional government have a right to pursue what they enjoy.
 
This is an idea that I think might work in a region of 60, or maybe even 600. But a region of 6,000? It's not practical.
 
On a separate note, is the Prime Minister going to open separate threads for different aspects of regional governance? That's how I've usually seen constitutional conventions work.

I don't really mind non-residents contributing ideas, but voting should be restricted to residents, in my view. This is an off-site community, but it's still the off-site community of the West Pacific. It's so easy to create a nation that anyone who can't at least reside in the region has no business voting on community matters.

I don't really mind non-residents contributing ideas, but voting should be restricted to residents, in my view. This is an off-site community, but it's still the off-site community of the West Pacific. It's so easy to create a nation that anyone who can't at least reside in the region has no business voting on community matters.

I have some concerns, though I'm not necessarily opposed.
 
First, where would we discuss legislation and other matters to vote on? Hosting those discussions on the RMB will disrupt the flow of casual discussions, discouraging them completely. There is only one RMB and trying to cram government onto it is, I fear, going to push everything else off of it.
 
Second, how do we prevent the massive potential for abuse? The on-site polls are not abuse-proof. These are the criteria you can select for on-site polls:
Residents: Nations in the region. Natives: Nations that possess more Regional Influence here than in any other region. WA Members: Members of the World Assembly. Large Nations: Nations with a population of at least 1 billion. Influential Nations: Nations possessing Regional Influence equivalent to having spent 1,000 unendorsed days in the region. The most secure option is obviously to select all of these criteria, but in doing so you will also be preventing a large number of legitimate residents from voting. If you start knocking off options, you open up the potential for malicious outsiders to try to influence the West Pacific through our on-site poll system. Specifically, the WA Members option is a must in order to prevent one person from voting with fifty (or more!) puppets. But even that is open to manipulation by outsiders because someone can just switch their WA status here temporarily; the only thing this option would prevent is multiple votes per person.
 
Finally, where would the executive government be run? Where would the cabinet coordinate, where would the military coordinate? Would we even have these things anymore?
 
This needs a lot of fleshing out before it can even start to look practical.

I have some concerns, though I'm not necessarily opposed.
 
First, where would we discuss legislation and other matters to vote on? Hosting those discussions on the RMB will disrupt the flow of casual discussions, discouraging them completely. There is only one RMB and trying to cram government onto it is, I fear, going to push everything else off of it.
 
Second, how do we prevent the massive potential for abuse? The on-site polls are not abuse-proof. These are the criteria you can select for on-site polls:
Residents: Nations in the region. Natives: Nations that possess more Regional Influence here than in any other region. WA Members: Members of the World Assembly. Large Nations: Nations with a population of at least 1 billion. Influential Nations: Nations possessing Regional Influence equivalent to having spent 1,000 unendorsed days in the region. The most secure option is obviously to select all of these criteria, but in doing so you will also be preventing a large number of legitimate residents from voting. If you start knocking off options, you open up the potential for malicious outsiders to try to influence the West Pacific through our on-site poll system. Specifically, the WA Members option is a must in order to prevent one person from voting with fifty (or more!) puppets. But even that is open to manipulation by outsiders because someone can just switch their WA status here temporarily; the only thing this option would prevent is multiple votes per person.
 
Finally, where would the executive government be run? Where would the cabinet coordinate, where would the military coordinate? Would we even have these things anymore?
 
This needs a lot of fleshing out before it can even start to look practical.

Of course. I learn through experience. 

I hereby admit I acted as a bit of a prick in the past couple of days. I'm sorry, the elections ended up getting to me and I acted a bit hot-headed. After taking a day-long break from NS, I should be calm enough not to snap anything/one's neck. Taking a break every once in a while really is a good idea, Dark. ^.^

Hey TWP, long time! How's things?
 
*Drops off the obligatory chocolate and booze, those delightful little chocolates with booze in them*

Unibot sees the world through defender colored glasses. He trusted your judgment, or pretended to, because he believed the NPO was headed in a defender direction. Now that it clearly isn't, now that you are no longer involved with the NPO in any case, and now that you are prominent in The West Pacific which is an independent region, he has no use for you and is free to attack you through use of what is supposed to be The Rejected Realms' newspaper but is actually Unibot's propaganda rag.

Unibot disapproves, so this was probably the right call.

Unibot disapproves, so this was probably the right call.

I think having an in-game "lower house" sounds nice in theory, but is a nightmare to implement in practice. If it were as easy as just waving a wand and doing it, most regions in NationStates would have that kind of structure. As it stands, there are few regions that take legislative votes directly to in-game residents.
 
Can you imagine trying to organize votes for all in-game residents? If you do it on the RMB, the RMB would be dominated by that rather than by the casual, friendly discussions that usually take place there, and it would be -- I hate to keep using this word, but it's what comes to mind -- a nightmare trying to scroll back through the RMB to make sure you're getting all the votes. This isn't even to mention the difficulty in dealing with the possibility of multiple nations controlled by the same player voting, and how you would screen for that. Or how much you'd be annoying casual players who have no interest in regional government, who have as much a right to live in TWP in peace without being bombarded with constant votes as those who like regional government have a right to pursue what they enjoy.
 
This is an idea that I think might work in a region of 60, or maybe even 600. But a region of 6,000? It's not practical.
 
On a separate note, is the Prime Minister going to open separate threads for different aspects of regional governance? That's how I've usually seen constitutional conventions work.

I think this is much ado about nothing, and I don't think it's fair to shout "NPO! NPO!!!!1!" every time Vlagh does something here. And that's from our resident fearmonger. 
 
Had Vlagh declared Elegarth the Prime Minister and had he continued to serve until the end of June or whenever, that would have been a problem. As it stands, Elegarth chose to dissolve the Assembly in favor of a constitutional convention since it's clear after two deadlocked votes that the system that has been designed is very flawed. This gives everyone -- not just Vlagh and Elegarth, but Llamas, Consular, me, everyone -- the opportunity to participate in the convention. I'm not seeing the problem.
 
I haven't been here long but it's fairly clear that e-lawyering, as Elegarth put it, isn't going to get anyone very far. If it isn't practical, it isn't practical. Let's design something that works instead of spending several days more on something that doesn't.

*would also like but screw quotas*

I would like to participate.

Said the DoS player, after having voted for me in the past elections.

Just ignore him. He's irrelevant to NS now, and thank god for that.

Actually, if I'm going to work on getting to know the culture of TWP, I think it would be better to do that without also administering a party that is suggesting completely upending the culture.
 
So I don't think the party will be accepting new applicants at this time.
 
Thank you for the welcome back, BBD.

Platform of the Democratic Union Party of The West Pacific
 

 
Introduction
 
The Democratic Union Party advocates change, real change that will create a more vibrant in-game and forum community.
 
The Democratic Union Party advocates community empowerment by giving resident nations of The West Pacific the opportunity to actively participate in the governance of their region through their regional assembly.
 
The Democratic Union Party advocates responsible government through the active election of the Delegate, as well as other regional officers, via the regional community forum, rather than passive endorsement of a Delegate chosen by the outgoing Delegate or the Guardians.
 
The Democratic Union Party advocates justice and accountability through the creation of an independent but accountable judiciary.
 
The Democratic Union Party advocates security and stability through creation of a more open security council, and abolition of the fixed endorsement cap in favor of a much higher limit that will allow for a high endorsement, high influence civilian WA community.
 
The Democratic Union Party advocates accomplishment of these goals through community outreach, legislative change, and peaceful elections, rather than through subversion, intimidation, or force.
 
The Democratic Union of The West Pacific
 
The Democratic Union Party will seek enactment of a new Governing Charter of The West Pacific that will create the Democratic Union of The West Pacific, and will mandate the following:
 
1. Empowering the Community: The Congress of The West Pacific
 
The Congress of The West Pacific will be the regional assembly, open to all residents of The West Pacific who wish to join and are approved by the Vice Delegate, whose decisions to reject an application may be reviewed and overturned by the Congress. The Congress will be the supreme governing authority of The West Pacific and will have the power to make any law, treaty, or policy that it determines would benefit the region and its community.
 
A Speaker, elected every two months, will preside over the Congress.
 
The Governing Charter will also mandate rights of residency that will be guaranteed to every nation residing in The West Pacific, as well as rights of Congress members that would not be applicable to residents who aren't involved in the Congress.
 
2. Responsible Government: The Executive Council of The West Pacific
 
The Congress will elect an Executive Council every four months to carry out executive governance of The West Pacific on behalf of the Congress. Officers of the Executive Council will be limited to two consecutive terms in office. The Executive Council will be comprised of the following elected officers:
 
Delegate: The Delegate will serve as regional Head of State and will be the first among equals on the Executive Council, chairing and deciding the agenda of its meetings. The Delegate will also be responsible for regional World Assembly affairs. Vice Delegate: The Vice Delegate will hold the second highest endorsement count in the region, will serve as liaison between the Executive Council and the Conclave of Guardians, the regional security council, and will be responsible for reviewing applications for membership in the Congress. Minister of Foreign Affairs: The Minister of Foreign Affairs will be responsible for conducting diplomacy with other regions, in consultation with the Executive Council, and for maintaining a diplomatic corps. Minister of Military Affairs: The Minister of Military Affairs will be responsible for administration and command of the military, which will act according to the interests of The West Pacific. Minister of Community Affairs: The Minister of Community Affairs will be responsible for regional community events, activities, and integration of the in-game and forum communities. Officers of the Executive Council may appoint deputies to assist them in their responsibilities.
 
3. Justice and Accountability: The High Court of The West Pacific
 
The High Court of The West Pacific will have the power to interpret the Governing Charter and all laws made under its authority, to overturn laws that contradict the Governing Charter, to restrain government actions that contradict the law, and to hear criminal trials, decide convictions, and determine sentencing. The High Court will be comprised of three justices, appointed to six month terms by nomination of the Executive Council and confirmation by the Congress. Justices will have no term limits and may serve for as long as the Executive Council and Congress are willing to nominate and confirm them, to ensure both accountability and independence of the High Court.
 
4. Security and Stability: The Conclave of Guardians
 
The Conclave of Guardians will grandfather in the current Guardians, provided they are willing to defend the Democratic Union against coup d'etat, and will then be open to any nation that wishes to join, provided the nation meets endorsement and influence requirements mandated by law, and is approved by the Congress. This will create a dedicated and, over time, large security council to ensure the security and stability of the region against rogue Delegates and, less likely, invading forces. The Conclave will be chaired and supervised by the elected Vice Delegate.
 
Additionally, the Governing Charter will abolish the endorsement cap, mandating only that a nation may not exceed the Vice Delegate's endorsements, which will encourage the growth of a high endorsement, high influence civilian WA community as well.
 

 
The Democratic Union Party is not accepting members at this time. Thank you for your interest!

Cormac, I actually have got a lot of time for you. I admire your passion for things, I think you've done a really good job with Miniluv Messenger and you've written some shit-hot resolutions in the WA.
I think sometimes that your passion blinkers you to the ways and cultures of others, much the same way that I think the NPO is blinkered.
That said I'm happy to welcome you back because I think you have talents this region could use.

From an outside(ish) prospective, this is fairly soft politics. It's the old farts vs the newbies, nothing strange there. Serious NS politics is when you have two groups of oldies going against each other. Its last player standing in a massive baity flame war.....and thats the good outcome

Wow, lots happening here since my post. I appreciate the welcome back messages and being given another chance.
 
In regard to the Guardians, I hope people won't paint all of the Guardians with the same broad brush because of Eli's tone toward me. Eli is like this with almost everyone and has been for years, at least since I started playing in 2012, but probably longer than that. Darkesia was (is?) a Guardian before becoming Delegate and if not for her being friendly and civil toward me and challenging me to come back and invest more, I wouldn't have come back at all. So, among the Guardians, as with most groups, you have diversity of backgrounds, opinions, attitudes, etc. The words and actions of one shouldn't be taken to represent all of them. When they're speaking as a group instead of as individuals, which I don't think happens very often, I'm sure they'll let us know.
 
For what it's worth, I don't feel bullied. But if some of the rhetoric is getting to newer players who aren't used to the sometimes contentious tone of NationStates politics, I would encourage everyone to take a breather. I doubt anyone wants to alienate newer players.

You don't have to have use for them. We aren't here for you to use.Let's just get that straight real quick.
And for the last time, this thread has nothing to do with llamas and therefore you should not attack him here.
Thank you.

I don't dislike you Cormac. I just often dislike your ideas, and your general behaviour.
 
 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯