Darkesia Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Nice, Elegarth! Glad to see that you seem at least a bit calmer now, and I hope to have a better conversation next time around without the necessity for fluffy kittens or pointless ad hominems. If thi was the NS forum you would have been warned so many times for baiting you might be DEATed by now. This had better be the last I see of it. And if you are too bleeding stupid to understand why this is the last nerve I have left for you, then you deserve every bit of bad mouthing you are getting. STOP BAITING NOW!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 Darkesia, look at this and please tell me what sounded like baiting to you, because I'm honestly not seeing it. I'll gladly edit it to fix any problems. Baiting is supposed to be veiled insults designed to provoke a reaction. This whole time, I posted pictures of fluffy kittens. I could have sworn I was doing the exact opposite by trying to defuse a tense situation. Of course Elegarth and I will get angry at each other, it's politics. I completely understand. I've gotten angry at others while debating in NS as well, and it's something quite common here in NS. I am sincerely glad that Elegarth and I will both be able to talk to each other more respectfully tomorrow morning, as I want to listen to his advice to help improve the constitutional draft. Dark, the alternative was pretty much to yell, scream, and insult him directly. I saw PD's post and sincerely wanted to change the state of affairs and try to act more maturely, as the way both Elegarth and myself have been acting for the past few days has left quite a bit to be desired. I didn't think that anyone would have preferred more bickering from my side rather than an attempt to extend an olive branch. Or, in this case, a fluffy kitten. *hands Dark a fluffy kitten in a box of chocolates* Are we all good now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormac Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I can't speak for Darkesia, but the repetitive, condescending refrain of "calm down," "calm down," "I'm glad to see you've calmed down" is on my last nerve. The constant references to ad hominem attacks like Elegarth is the only one who's engaged in them is also annoying. The fluffy kittens are also really condescending, like Elegarth needs to see kittens in order to "calm down." All of it seems very condescending, immature, and all around disrespectful, to be honest. Passive aggressive personal jabs are still jabs despite their passive aggressive nature. Not meant as an attack on you, just pointing out some issues since you genuinely don't seem to understand what is frustrating people. Big Bad Badger, That Called the Vlagh, URAP and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 In order to facilitate this form of governance into what is expected of the off-site community I have made a few minor editing suggestions. Overall, I have made no structural changes to the document, just some minor editing, which is clearly marked below. If the proposer does not accept these changes or wishes to discuss them with me directly, I am happy to have that conversation, but ultimately if I feel that the documents being presented do not represent current reality here in TWP fully they will not be put forward for approval (unless I am overruled by the Delegate, of course). The imposition of WA membership on members of the off-site community government is not in keeping with the purpose of this convention. This is unacceptable. Further, it should be clear that the off-site community government is just that, the government of the off-site community. TWP maintains that the Delegate is head of government for the region and in-game 'head of state'. The West Pacific Constitution Act The Legislative Assembly is hereby established as the sole legislative body in the West Pacific. The Legislative Assembly will consist of all members of the World Assembly of the off-site community residing within the region, subject to further reasonable restrictions imposed by the Prime Minister for purposes of regional security, who will each be granted an equal vote in all matters of legislation. The Prime Minister may choose to grant a nation honorary membership in order to confer voting rights upon a nation whose WA does not reside within the West Pacific. The Legislative Assembly shall operate using in-game polls to make the process of voting and participating simpler and easier with the permission of the Delegate. Should the Delegate be unable to create a poll for a particular vote within five days of a proposal being submitted, the Legislative Assembly shall instead hold a vote on the regional forums. A law shall be moved to vote if it receives explicit statements of support from five members of the region on the forums, or if it is proposed by the Executive Council as a whole. The Executive Council of the West Pacific is hereby established and will be tasked with carrying out all commands and laws of the off-site community regional legislature. The Executive Council shall consist of the Prime Minister and all Officers appointed by the Prime Minister to assist in performing his or her duties. The Delegate shall be considered a non-member observer on the Executive Council and have access to all of its communications, but shall not be considered a full member of the body. However, the Delegate maintains ultimate authority over the actions of the Executive Council. All full members of the Executive Council will respond to the Prime Minister, and will be held responsible before them for their actions and omissions in the execution of their duties. Should any full member of the Executive Council fail to perform their duties as laid out in the law, the Delegate may call for a constructive vote of no confidence to remove the incumbent and replace them. In order to succeed, over three-fifths of all votes cast must be in favor of the motion. A full member of the legislature who is appointed in such a manner may not be removed from office until the next General Elections have ended. Any member of the Executive Council may appoint deputies to assist them in carrying out their duties. The Executive Council as a whole shall possess the power of legislative initiative, and may choose to propose a bill before the Legislative Assembly to be either approved or rejected by majority vote. The following Offices are hereby established as part of the Executive Council. The Prime Minister will be Head of Government for the off-site community in the West Pacific as well as Head of the Executive Council, acting to coordinate its activities and set its agenda. The Officer of Foreign Affairs will, in consultation with the Prime Minister, be responsible for coordinating diplomatic interaction with other regions and nations, and will also be responsible for handling World Assembly Affairs. The Officer of Judicial Affairs will be responsible for maintaining order within the West Pacific, especially on its forums, by issuing punishment for minor crimes and judgement when guilt or innocence is clearly evident. The Officer of Community Affairs will be responsible for facilitating community affairs, including but not necessarily limited to integration, culture, and role play. The Officer of Home Affairs will be responsible for recruiting recently-founded nations within TWP so that they will join the forums and remain in the region, increasing the number of nations in the region who are both in the World Assembly and endorsing the Delegate to assist domestic security, and educate the people of the region IRC so that they may become active and productive citizens of the West Pacific. The Judiciary will be the third branch of the West Pacific’s government, and will consist of the Regional Court. The Regional Court will be made up of three members: Two Justices of the Peace and the Minister of Judicial Affairs. Justices of the Peace will be nominated by the Delegate and then either approved or rejected by the Legislative Assembly. Should a Justice of the Peace fail to perform their duties as laid out in the law, the Delegate may call for a constructive vote of no confidence to remove the incumbent and replace him with another candidate. In order to succeed, over three-fifths of all votes cast must be in favor of the motion. A full member of the legislature who is appointed in such a manner may not be removed from office until the next General Elections have ended. The Regional Court will handle appeals from those who have been punished by the Minister of Judicial Affairs and grant all accused a fair trial upon agreeing to hear their appeal. The Regional Court is granted the authority to interpret laws of the region off-site community. Should any law passed by the Legislative Assembly contradict the Constitution without explicitly modifying it, the offending law will be struck down. No member of the Regional Court apart from the Minister of Judicial Affairs may also be a member of the Executive Council. General elections will be held every three months to select a Prime Minister. General elections will begin on the first of every March, June, September, and December. Elections will consist of a three-day nomination and campaigning period in which any member or honorary member of the Legislative Assembly may declare their candidacy, followed by a five-day vote in which every member or honorary member of the Legislative Assembly will receive a single vote. Should no candidate receive a majority of votes cast in the election, a runoff shall be held between the top two candidates. Should the office of Prime Minister become suddenly vacant, the Delegate will appoint an Acting Prime Minister to serve for the duration of snap elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reçueçn Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 It seems to me that vlagh's changes alter some of the main points of this proposal, as some of the fundamental goals were to put emphasis on in-game, rather than off-site. What is the point of an in-game poll if membership is limited to off-site members? It doesn't really matter to me, as I wouldn't have voted for the proposal in its original state and it seems kind of pointless now, but I predict Llamas will not be happy with the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 It seems to me that vlagh's changes alter some of the main points of this proposal, as some of the fundamental goals were to put emphasis on in-game, rather than off-site. What is the point of an in-game poll if membership is limited to off-site members? It doesn't really matter to me, as I wouldn't have voted for the proposal in its original state and it seems kind of pointless now, but I predict Llamas will not be happy with the changes. Indeed. What is the point of in-game polls for an off-site community? I asked myself the same question when reading this proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 I'll reserve my comments to Llamas changes once he has made a decision on Vlagh's suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 How would the forum compel the Delegate to offer any specific poll for consideration? I know how I would react to anyone telling me I have to do anything when I was Delegate. It would not remind anyone of campfires and kumbaya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fratellnoir Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 How would the forum compel the Delegate to offer any specific poll for consideration? I know how I would react to anyone telling me I have to do anything when I was Delegate. It would not remind anyone of campfires and kumbaya. Even the voters (WA nations) that put you there? How like a RL politician! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 The WA elects a Delegate, not a Counselor or legislator. Me thinks you don't understand the game Frat, the Delegate is the Ruler of the region. There is a HUGE difference between the forum government working with the Delegate toward a desired goal and ordering the Delegate to do something. Were you or the forum govt. to order me to do anything you'd be visiting Unibot in his fantasy world democracy, that you may depend upon. Elegarth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fratellnoir Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The WA elects a Delegate, not a Counselor or legislator. Me thinks you don't understand the game Frat, the Delegate is the Ruler of the region. There is a HUGE difference between the forum government working with the Delegate toward a desired goal and ordering the Delegate to do something. Were you or the forum govt. to order me to do anything you'd be visiting Unibot in his fantasy world democracy, that you may depend upon. I understand fully the WA/Endorsement/Delegate symbiosis It is the only true instrument of "power" in the game - the Guardians. forums, governments etc are all peripherals to that basic premise If I or the other WA's decided that we did not like the way you were running things as delegate then we have the right to endorse an alternative However, like almost every other feeder TWP has adopted the artificial "Guardian" system to prevent any getting "above their station" and upsetting the existing order As the FAQ says: Delegates are elected: if you don't like yours, it's up to you to get her unelected! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkesia Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 So, the system that permits you to run your questionable military activities is the very system you wish to destroy? I think you are putting yourself in a precarious position. Westwind 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fratellnoir Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 So, the system that permits you to run your questionable military activities is the very system you wish to destroy? I think you are putting yourself in a precarious position. Any military activity in NS is reliant on the willing participation of those involved. Without at least one supporter no such action can be undertaken - it is therefore probably more democratic than the existing delegate system here insofar as there is no coercion to do so, nor is there any consequence of not participating. As it requires the co-operation of those involved it is imperative that their opinions, aims and desires are considered, rather than barking orders. "The art of leadership is in the ability to make people want to work for you, while they are really under no obligation to do so"Haile Selassie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormac Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 it is therefore probably more democratic than the existing delegate system here insofar as there is no coercion to do so, nor is there any consequence of not participating. Which WA nations are coerced to endorse the sitting Delegate or will face consequences if they don't? Which WA nations are told who they may or may not endorse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reçueçn Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Which WA nations are coerced to endorse the sitting Delegate or will face consequences if they don't? Which WA nations are told who they may or may not endorse? While not outright coercion, the most obvious answer is the endo-cap. If you do not endorse the Delegate, you are only allowed to have 10 endorsements, which is definitely a consequence. Furthermore, going over this limit brings even stronger consequences--ejection. (Take Llamas for example--and he had even endorsed Darkesia.) As for telling WA nations who they may or may not endorse, the example of Llamas again applies. We are not allowed to endorse nations at the endo-cap. Usually people go looking for endorsements rather than looking for people to give them to. So when WAs give their endorsements, if it's not as endotarting, it's usually to do someone the return favor. Thus limiting how many endorsements a person may have is the same as telling others they may not endorse them. (By definition. Not sure why it took me a whole paragraph to flesh that out.) If we did decide we wanted a different delegate, and endorsed that delegate, that candidate would be ejected long before they passed the number of endos Darkesia has. The only other option would be to do it just before the update, raider/coup style. But besides being practically impossible, that defeats the purpose of the democratic process in the first place. Again, I understand the reasons for the policy, and am not proposing its removal (although the lower cap could maybe be raised to 20, in my opinion. Then again I don't know the influence stats.) I just don't think it's completely fair to pretend that the giving and receiving of endorsements is completely voluntary--it's actually highly controlled and dictated. Llamas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 The giving and receiving is voluntary. But our recognition of the in-game mechanics also means the recognition of the sitting delegate to use the tools at his/her availability - banjections, WFE, moderation of the RMB - at his/her will to defend the position. If someone wants to take the delegacy, our system allows for it, they would just need to make it so, and it WOULD require a very good coordinated effort or collusion with a guardian - which while unlikely, is not impossible. Darkesia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The endo cap here is 70, not 10. I ran it without endorsement caps, BUT if anyone got over a magic number I sent them packing This is The West Pacific, you most certainly can mount an operation to overcome the Delegate, it is possible. RolHeath did it Darkesia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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