Big Bad Badger

Hi there TWP o/
I'm W&S. Some of you know me, others don't, but I'm a soon-to-be-stateless gameplayer who's taken up residence in TWP recently and I realized I hadn't made a forum account here yet. https://www.nationstates.net/nation=twpaf_temp_worker is my nation in TWP. More on the name below :P 
A little about me for those who don't know me so well:
My main nation is Witchcraft and Sorcery and I usually go by W&S or WS or whatever variant of that you please. I just celebrated (or rather completely forgot) my sixth anniversary playing NS on February first. Most of that time has been spent in 10000 Islands, where I've been a senator, dean of the university, and tactical officer of TITO among other things. I also spent a year and a half in the Grey Wardens before returning to 10ki. Right now though I'm in the process of leaving 10ki, this time likely for good as my military ideas have shifted well away from what 10ki stands for. 
What the heckee am I doing here?
Just chilling for now, honestly. I've become friendly with a lot of people in TWP's government over the last couple of years. Badger, Dali, Rigel, Ark, and I've had pleasant interactions with a lot more. Y'all are cool and I'm happy to be here ^_^

Done

Done!

I really like what you have done Fujai!  I especially love the fonts and flags!

Yes!  Thanks Badger!  I love it when I check the thread, knowing I put off a bunch of stuff that now needs caught up and finding that someone else has done it already!  
A round on me!
 

Done!

Done!

I really like what you have done Fujai!  I especially love the fonts and flags!

I have this Qing inspired flag concept ready, and I was thinking about drawing a TWP themed dragon dance parade with a red and purple Chinese palace in the background. I will send sketches when done, but because I am a bit busy it will take some time until I send a complete piece. Sorry for the tease!

Done!

I was feeling and thinking something similar. Perhaps not a full government, I was thinking more on the line of a Hall of Nations, separate from the existing off-site institutions, intended to bring people together and with no goals for the delegacy. Wanna chat about it?
Recognizing when one's own creation has surpassed one or has become disappointing IS a form of Wisdom.
I don't think this is a threat, it is a statement of intent. You live in TWP Ark, the ONE AND ONLY region in NS where you could see a group of disfranchised inhabitants come together, form a new institution of any sort, take advantage of the existing off site forums instead of creating new ones (and hence avoiding a whole can of worms of issues) and find their own way to build, live and enjoy community. If this threatens you, man, I think perhaps TWP is not the right place for you. This was the hardest part for me to learn. 
I don't disagree that we don't need a revolution. But the art of conversation between two opposing parties implies that both of them are willing to move towards a more center-position. You get close to me as I get close to you.

The party in this situation that is not comfortable with the current proposal made a reach by requesting a simple middle-ground solution, and the other party didn't budged a millimeter. What conversation could be held?. 
The last time a new windows dressing was purchase at my house, my wife picked an option, may in-law picked an option (RIP), I picked an option, and then we discussed keeping the "Neither of the above" as a valid option. That won, and we went for a different approach. If this "theme" is as light as a Windows Dressing, why was it so hard for you to accept the possibility of a "neither of the above" and a more global selection process?? It seems to me you are down-playing now what you previously up-played... (damn made up words, damn them)
Or, as it is happening in this case, the powers that be held themselves tight to their idea despite the fact that there are serious and rational doubts about it. Why wouldn't this happen later? For all we know, and the evidence present, your "Halo adjusts it" may not be a real thing, given that they weren't ready or willing to adjust the selection process - which is also the most adjustable part with less work.

Anyway, as I say, I respect the delegate and his authority, that doesn't means I need to agree with any of what is done.

Furthermore, I'm not even part of the Hall of Nations so I guess I shouldn't even have the right to mess with this, according to the way things have been handled so far... As WW says, my opinion doesn't matter.

This is exactly my point. If you want the theme to be successful there must be community buy in. The best way to achieve that is by giving the community ownership of the process.
Instead we are told "trust us". And those of us who have wanted to discuss the process have been put down, discredited, and mocked for being afraid of change.
 
This is exactly right as pointed out by Kawaii on discord:
 
This is the exact approach to create community! Instead of creating the opposite...an us vs them environment.
When there's absolutely nothing occurring in the Hall except elections, sure this discussion could have occurred in a healthy and meaningful way. 
Honestly this entire process has left a really bad taste in my mouth for the way our region is governed. Perhaps it is time to discuss a second forum government to give the residents a voice. As WW has pointed out, it has happened in the past.

This is exactly my point. If you want the theme to be successful there must be community buy in. The best way to achieve that is by giving the community ownership of the process.
Instead we are told "trust us". And those of us who have wanted to discuss the process have been put down, discredited, and mocked for being afraid of change.
 
This is exactly right as pointed out by Kawaii on discord:
 
This is the exact approach to create community! Instead of creating the opposite...an us vs them environment.
When there's absolutely nothing occurring in the Hall except elections, sure this discussion could have occurred in a healthy and meaningful way. 
Honestly this entire process has left a really bad taste in my mouth for the way our region is governed. Perhaps it is time to discuss a second forum government to give the residents a voice. As WW has pointed out, it has happened in the past.

That's definitely a step in the right direction, though I have two questions about it.
First, why not just do this in the first place and skip the part where we vote on three options? Kawaii, OT, and Ark could certainly head their own teams and if one of their themes was chosen then more power to them. That seems like a really good compromise between more community involvement and keeping it centralized to me, and could have avoided a lot of this drama.
Second, if you had the beginning of this plan before voting started, why wasn't there more transparency? Again a lot of this drama could've been at least soothed by more fluid communication (not that I claim to be good at communication myself).
Can you tell us what they are and how to get involved, should we desire?
I've noticed it a lot in past and present Delegacies that changes and new programs are very much a "guardians and ministers only" club. Right now those two groups overlap a lot, which doesn't help the situation. We always complain to ourselves that the regional government isn't very active, and yet we have regional governments that aren't inclusive in the activity that's happening.
People keep saying something we as a region need to think more about: if there's no ownership, then what incentive does the community have to interact with it?
The answer is, of course: none. We can try to make incentives like the peerage and point systems, but if the community doesn't feel like something is genuinely theirs—like the're not intrinsically a part of something—then there's no reason to be involved. That's one reason some of us don't like the three themes presented. They don't feel like TWP—they don't feel like something the community can rally behind and say "this is who we are."
There's a discussion to be had on whether a theme should do that. I argue that if a theme doesn't inspire long-term feelings of regional spirit and belonging, then what good is it? A real theme should be a tool to enhance regional identity, not just as a change of clothes to throw off every so often.

We need change, not replacement. While I love me a good ol' fashioned revolution, an honest discussion about present (and past) governments not being very responsive to the people is going to get the region further than suggesting a second government. This topic doesn't need any more discussion; it will only create needless divisiveness.
Bottom line: this is about activity, or rather the lack of it. The new theme is an attempt to inspire some new activity, and it's certainly a good idea, the execution is not as inclusive as it could be. Since the theme itself is trying to create activity, it makes sense to involve the community to actively shape it.
While well-intentioned and functional on paper, the Manners, the Hall, and the Delegacy have not acquitted themselves well in fostering activity. in the past few months there've been a couple threads about change, and that's a good start, but there has to be more discussion how to change the way we do things so we can get out of this cycle of regional stagnation.
 

Seeing as the whole process is up to the delegate's discretion, the only "too late" point is when the new theme is in place.
Respecting the delegate's decisions and wanting more community input are not mutually exclusive. It's not "my methods are better," it's more "we think there hasn't been enough community input in this process and that may jeopardize the success of a theme change."
Yes, but the extent of that say has been voting in the nice and neat poll that includes only the options presented to us by the cabinet. There hasn't been, and I hazard that there never was intended to be, community involvement in the actual drafting process.
There's no reason the delegate couldn't have come to the community, or just the Hall, and said "We're going to have a theme change. How do you feel about that? What do you think of these preliminary options we've come up with so far, and do you have any suggestions of your own?" That would've spawned discussion similar to this one, but without people being miffed by an exclusionary process.
As WW pointed out, there are poll options gameside to make it fairly secure. Opening the vote to all residents over 1B will certainly get a better response than the couple dozen in the Hall.
Better yet, if we actually put effort into promoting and advertising the Hall, perhaps we wouldn't have that problem.

Done! But please don't call me Dark.

Done! But please don't call me Dark.

Done! But please don't call me Dark.

I want to echo each and all WW comments

Lol. I feel like an onsite vote is a little on "too little too late" territory at this point. Kind of having a hard time processing the disparity between "I respect the delegate's decisions" and "but the delegate should do things by my methods." What the delegate has chosen to do is give TWP a theme. He's also chosen to give citizens of the region a say in the direction of that theme. Very kind of him. And wise, to make sure that those involved in making long term decisions for TWP are people who understand the place and will not CTE a few weeks from now, unaffected by what their randomly chosen vote brings us. Or vote stackers. Or trolly people from different regions taking that opportunity to decide TWP's fate without TWP's consent. Wouldn't that just be a disaster. 

I think that this is a real positive idea that will help the chosen theme gain legitimacy in the region.
I agree that it feels like we are rushing into this when legit discussion is/was still taking place.
I am increasingly unsettled that the only people allowed to vote on the regional theme are Hall of Nations members.
It doesn't seem representative of the region.

*raises eyebrow*
Where?
Again, I'm not on Discord, so I don't know where this lengthy discussion occurred, because it certainly wasn't here or ingame.
You seem to have a different POV than those outside your circle. I think it would be wise to consider this.
Correct and agreed. It isn't an organic change, let's not pretend that it is.
As I mentioned before, if you set the poll on Native, you can only vote if you have more Influence in TWP than any other region. And if you set it on Large Nations, nations under 1 billion can't vote. IMO you can get a fairly secure ingame vote. But it seem everyone in NS doesn't realize this. 
But then, it's a pet peeve of mine of that many ignore ingame features in favor of offisite control.
 
Also agreed. What's the rush?
Let me follow up on my comments about having made theme changes in my time. I took the Delegacy of a TWP that had a brand new inactive forum, no formal government, no constitution/charter/whatever. I was starting from scratch.  That's not the case now. 
I am afraid my feeling is that this change is being ramrodded down the region's throat, with a couple days of comment substituting for discussion, debate, and input, where any alternative thoughts are dismissed when they were never considered in the first place.  Saint Mark seems overly defensive and apologetic, which doesn't inspire confidence in this plan of action.
Or in other words, this all seems poorly handled and poorly presented.
As I said, fourth impression:  My opinion doesn't matter. Sadly, regardless of the Delegate posting promises, I have little confidence in this change under these circumstances. 
Most of us are not in the Cabinet, and nowhere do I see evidence of this. You are defending yourself instead of promoting your position.....it feels strange and makes me wonder why you are so defensive.
How often does the Delegate/Cabinet/Guardians bring such issues before the region?
Isn't it true that controversy drives conflict which drives activity?
Isn't it shutting down this same activity by rushing to a conclusion?
*nods* A Delegate, Guardian, Minister should be servants of the region.
 
 

I think that this is a real positive idea that will help the chosen theme gain legitimacy in the region.
I agree that it feels like we are rushing into this when legit discussion is/was still taking place.
I am increasingly unsettled that the only people allowed to vote on the regional theme are Hall of Nations members.
It doesn't seem representative of the region.

I agree that interest in the theme change has been more than for all other subjects that have come up for debate in recent times, which is great news.  The numbers still do not, in my opinion, come anywhere near to a mandate from the player community at large.  By denying them a say, even if it is an advisory one, seems to me to be overly restrictive and may result in feelings of having been ridden roughshod and ignored.
It is understood that much work has been done by yourself and the proponents of the shortlisted themes, and that by going to the populace may seem be be against your personal wishes/judgement.  However, I fail to see what the cogent argument(s) for not doing so is/are. Of course, the final path ahead is your's to chart, but if I were a player and knew that a theme change was in the offing I would love, nay expect, to be at least asked my views.  After all, without the players, what is the region's raison d'etre?