An Alternative Model – Real Democracy for All

[Llamas]

After seeing Milograd's plan to divide the HGA into an upper and lower house, I have decided to propose this way more awesome plan that meshes the two parts of our regional burrito rather well, if I may say so myself. Keep in mind that this is a rough draft, and will likely change significantly.

 

The Assembly

• The Assembly would be handled using regional polls. Assembly polls will remain open to all WA members in the region, making sure that each person only gets one vote; however, votes cast by those who have been in the WA or region for less than a week would be discarded and not counted in the official tally, in order to prevent manipulation by switchers or people moving into the region just to vote before leaving.
• The Delegate will be head of the Assembly, organizing debates and voting to keep it from getting out of hand.
• The Assembly's main powers will be reserve powers. Rather than handle the day-to-day running of the region, the Assembly will be expected to serve as a check on the Senate's authority and to represent the will of the region as a whole, rather than just the forums. As most members of the region are not highly interested in the niceties of legislation, bills passed by the Assembly will not require their approval to become law. 

• However, if a petition is signed by at least 1/3 of the Senate supporting a referendum on a bill, it will be moved to a vote before the Assembly; should it receive more than 50% of votes cast there, the bill will pass.

• The Delegate or the Prime Minister may move to recall one or more senators. In order to succeed, the motion must receive 2/3 approval in the Assembly.

 

The Senate

• The Senate's job would be to handle the day-to-day affairs of the region and most legislation, ensuring that most members of the region do not have to focus on small formalities. Legislation will need support from a majority in the Senate to pass.
• The Senate would be composed of the most active members of our region, in order to reward them for their greater services to the region. As such, all members of the Senate must be on the forums and remain active on them; failure to meet a certain post quota per month would result in automatic removal, unless a special exemption had been granted by the Prime Minister, allowing for some periods of inactivity (e.g. While going on vacation).
• In the future, the Prime Minister will be nominated by the Delegate and then confirmed by the Senate. The Senate shall have the authority to remove the Prime Minister or any Officer they appoint through the use of a vote of no confidence. The Prime Minister will also be the head of the Senate.
• Senators will be appointed in one of two ways: Either the Prime Minister may propose a new Senator to the Citizen's Assembly, who will then ratify the choice, or the Delegate may propose a new Senator to the current Senate. 
• Senators may be expelled from the body by a 2/3 majority vote in the Senate.
• All bills passed by the Senate are subject to veto by the Delegate.

[URAP]

The Assembly

 

• The Assembly would be handled using regional polls. Assembly polls will remain open to all WA members in the region, making sure that each person only gets one vote; however, votes cast by those who have been in the WA or region for less than a week would be discarded and not counted in the official tally, in order to prevent manipulation by switchers or people moving into the region just to vote before leaving.
• The Delegate will be head of the Assembly, organizing debates and voting to keep it from getting out of hand.
• The Assembly's main powers will be reserve powers. Rather than handle the day-to-day running of the region, the Assembly will be expected to serve as a check on the Senate's authority and to represent the will of the region as a whole, rather than just the forums. As most members of the region are not highly interested in the niceties of legislation, bills passed by the Assembly will not require their approval to become law. 

• However, if a petition is signed by at least 1/3 of the Senate supporting a referendum on a bill, it will be moved to a vote before the Assembly; should it receive more than 50% of votes cast there, the bill will pass.

• The Delegate or the Prime Minister may move to recall one or more senators. In order to succeed, the motion must receive 2/3 approval in the Assembly.

This. SOooooo much this. yeees. I likes much. 

[A fish in the sea]

I have a bit of a problem with this: if your followers and Milo's followers are not in the Senate and Assembly, then the Assembly could just veto anything the Senate says, especially if Milo's followers occupy the Assembly, and the government would lock up.

 

Don't worry Llamas, I'm still on your side 

[Llamas]

I have a bit of a problem with this: if your followers and Milo's followers are not in the Senate and Assembly, then the Assembly could just veto anything the Senate says, especially if Milo's followers occupy the Assembly, and the government would lock up.

 

Don't worry Llamas, I'm still on your side 

Are you worrying about deadlock? I don't see that as a real possibility. Because legislation passed by the Senate does not need the Assembly's approval to pass, neither can really veto the other and make it impossible to pass legislation.

 

This. SOooooo much this. yeees. I likes much. 

Well, thank you for that. Glad to see it getting support.

[Pestarzt]

• The Assembly would be handled using regional polls. Assembly polls will remain open to all WA members in the region, making sure that each person only gets one vote; however, votes cast by those who have been in the WA or region for less than a week would be discarded and not counted in the official tally, in order to prevent manipulation by switchers or people moving into the region just to vote before leaving.
• The Delegate will be head of the Assembly, organizing debates and voting to keep it from getting out of hand.
• The Assembly's main powers will be reserve powers. Rather than handle the day-to-day running of the region, the Assembly will be expected to serve as a check on the Senate's authority and to represent the will of the region as a whole, rather than just the forums. As most members of the region are not highly interested in the niceties of legislation, bills passed by the Assembly will not require their approval to become law. 

The Delegate or the Prime Minister may move to recall one or more senators. In order to succeed, the motion must receive 2/3 approval in the Assembly.

 

 

1. What about significant TWP'ers who aren't in the WA? If you're really talking about "real democracy for all", what of them?

2. How is the assembly actually checking any Senate power? What powers does it explicitly have?

3. If the Assembly nations are not checking the forum, what qualifies them to make an educated vote on the recall of a person whose activity is chiefly on the forum? Isn't your proposal essentially giving the region nothing more than rubber-stamp powers on matters that they don't check up on?

I strongly encourage new players to ask how this proposal actually strengthens the in-game community. Llamas' proposal makes large promises in populist language, but doesn't actually provide any concrete way of empowering the in-game population.

 

Don't make the n00bish mistake of not questioning what you support just because it sounds nice. Pay attention to the details.

[URAP]

1. What about significant TWP'ers who aren't in the WA? If you're really talking about "real democracy for all", what of them?

2. How is the assembly actually checking any Senate power? What powers does it explicitly have?

3. If the Assembly nations are not checking the forum, what qualifies them to make an educated vote on the recall of a person whose activity is chiefly on the forum? Isn't your proposal essentially giving the region nothing more than rubber-stamp powers on matters that they don't check up on?I strongly encourage new players to ask how this proposal actually strengthens the in-game community. Llamas' proposal makes large promises in populist language, but doesn't actually provide any concrete way of empowering the in-game population.

 

Don't make the n00bish mistake of not questioning what you support just because it sounds nice. Pay attention to the details.

First of all, please chill a little. He said it was a WIP, so it is.

1. What about significant TWP'ers who aren't in the WA? If you're really talking about "real democracy for all", what of them?

Obviously, if we recognize them, they get a vote. If we don't, and they're not in the WA, tough luck. They need to do something at least. If they're not willing to go THAT far, they don't deserve it. Not wanting to join a forum, I can understand. Not wanting to join the WA is a little too far. Examples: Yy4u would obviously get a vote. Occidius would get a vote.

3. If the Assembly nations are not checking the forum, what qualifies them to make an educated vote on the recall of a person whose activity is chiefly on the forum? Isn't your proposal essentially giving the region nothing more than rubber-stamp powers on matters that they don't check up on?

They need education, too; there would be announcements from an unbiased source(say, the delegate) about the candidates and their goals.

Llamas' proposal makes large promises in populist language, but doesn't actually provide any concrete way of empowering the in-game population. [/b]

 

Don't make the n00bish mistake of not questioning what you support just because it sounds nice. Pay attention to the details.

I'm not sure how not giving the people a chance to vote in an easily accessible fashion where they could not before doesn't concretely empower them, but hey, if you explain I'd be happy to see reason.

[Pestarzt]

First of all, please chill a little. He said it was a WIP, so it is.

Obviously, if we recognize them, they get a vote. If we don't, and they're not in the WA, tough luck.

Polls don't have that functionality...a WA-only vote is WA-only.

[A fish in the sea]

I so wish I wasn't on my phone. Would love to rant about some of the completely idiotic ideas floating around the forum right now.

Remember a very important fact, Llamas supporters: his plan requires a completely subservient delegate who does nothing but post polls and vet the votes received.

This
Will
Never
Happen

Never

Feeder delegates are ego maniacal power mongers. We don't do subservient. Not in our nature.

Umm...

The Assembly

• The Assembly would be handled using regional polls. Assembly polls will remain open to all WA members in the region, making sure that each person only gets one vote; however, votes cast by those who have been in the WA or region for less than a week would be discarded and not counted in the official tally, in order to prevent manipulation by switchers or people moving into the region just to vote before leaving.
• The Delegate will be head of the Assembly, organizing debates and voting to keep it from getting out of hand.
• The Assembly's main powers will be reserve powers. Rather than handle the day-to-day running of the region, the Assembly will be expected to serve as a check on the Senate's authority and to represent the will of the region as a whole, rather than just the forums. As most members of the region are not highly interested in the niceties of legislation, bills passed by the Assembly will not require their approval to become law. 

• However, if a petition is signed by at least 1/3 of the Senate supporting a referendum on a bill, it will be moved to a vote before the Assembly; should it receive more than 50% of votes cast there, the bill will pass.

• The Delegate or the Prime Minister may move to recall one or more senators. In order to succeed, the motion must receive 2/3 approval in the Assembly.

 

The Senate

• In the future, the Prime Minister will be nominated by the Delegate and then confirmed by the Senate. The Senate shall have the authority to remove the Prime Minister or any Officer they appoint through the use of a vote of no confidence. The Prime Minister will also be the head of the Senate.
• Senators will be appointed in one of two ways: Either the Prime Minister may propose a new Senator to the Citizen's Assembly, who will then ratify the choice, or the Delegate may propose a new Senator to the current Senate. 
• Senators may be expelled from the body by a 2/3 majority vote in the Senate.
• All bills passed by the Senate are subject to veto by the Delegate.

Delegate:

• head of Assembly
• organizing debates and voting to keep it from getting out of hand
• nominates Prime Minister
• proposes new Senators to Senate
• can veto bills

Yeah, I can see where Dark is coming from. I think the Delegate might need a little bit more power so that the Delegate role will actually match up to the Delegate. I'm still with you, Llamas!

 

A thought just popped into my head, Llamas. Why don't you change your flag to the Arizona llamas chase? Maybe if you don't win the election or something.

[Llamas]

lol, thanks for the idea Fish.

 

But I also see that there's been a mistake. What I listed here is not going to be the only authority the delegate will have, it's just a list of changes to the Delegate's authority. Essentially, the Delegate and guardians will still be able to do exactly the same things they do right now, but everything that Fish just listed is new additions to the Delegate's power. Darkesia will still have executive authority, the ability to eject, etc., just as she does right now.

[Pestarzt]

lol, thanks for the idea Fish.

 

But I also see that there's been a mistake. What I listed here is not going to be the only authority the delegate will have, it's just a list of changes to the Delegate's authority. Essentially, the Delegate and guardians will still be able to do exactly the same things they do right now, but everything that Fish just listed is new additions to the Delegate's power. Darkesia will still have executive authority, the ability to eject, etc., just as she does right now.

 

...as though you or anyone can expand or reduce the Delegate's authority. 

[URAP]

Polls don't have that functionality...a WA-only vote is WA-only.

just don't count any votes that aren't from WA nations.

[Pestarzt]

just don't count any votes that aren't from WA nations.

 

You'll be hard-pressed to find a competent delegate willing to strain themselves with checking the WA status of voters in a feeder.

[Llamas]

You'll be hard-pressed to find a competent delegate willing to strain themselves with checking the WA status of voters in a feeder.

You do realize that you can do it automatically by selecting from the polls? ...Dammit, how long has it been since you've been a delegate? It seems that you're falling behind the times, Milo. You should probably start paying actual attention to new developments.

 

 

...as though you or anyone can expand or reduce the Delegate's authority. 

Ah, yes, excellent accusation. Now, you can set the authorities against me! Milo, it won't work. I literally just noted that I wasn't planning to reduce the Delegate's authority. And I very much can expand the Delegate's authority on aspects like this, by giving the Delegate authority to be head of the regional assembly.

[Pestarzt]

You do realize that you can do it automatically by selecting from the polls? ...Dammit, how long has it been since you've been a delegate? It seems that you're falling behind the times, Milo. You should probably start paying actual attention to new developments.

Your snark really doesn't serve you well.

I was referring to the fact that you can't give "people we know" votes or bar people who haven't been in the region for more than a week from voting. You had to manually check them.

[Little Sealand]

Often times any election in real life turns to mud slinging. Apparently NS is the same.

[URAP]

I was referring to the fact that you can't give "people we know" votes or bar people who haven't been in the region for more than a week from voting. You had to manually check them.

The delegate doesn't have to do that. Someone could be appointed to do that.

[Nox]

The delegate doesn't have to do that. Someone could be appointed to do that.

 

Sorry for butting in, but this all honestly sounds like an overly complicated alternative just to allow a choice few nations to be counted alongside the WA nations, even though that could be accomplished with votes on the forums without needing to waste time creating a new role and appointing somebody,

[Elegarth]

As I consider this part of campaigning, locked temporary:

http://www.westpacific.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1303-statement-and-action-in-current-events-in-the-hga/

[Eli]

I think the Delegate should have the power of banjecting members from either body and having that recognized de jure.

[Llamas]

I think the Delegate should have the power of banjecting members from either body and having that recognized de jure.

Well, banning members from the Assembly would automatically be recognized, as it is impossible for somebody not in TWP to vote in the Assembly. As to the Senate, that's a possibility that we should consider putting in place.

[punkdaddy]

I think this idea has a lot of merit. It's interesting and the Assembly idea is in keeping with the spirit of TWP recognizing the in-game as supreme to the off-site forum. 

 

A few months ago, I suggested that we should do away with the offsite forums altogether as an experiment. NS has made a number of enhancements to aide in intraregional communication. 

 

But I like this idea.

[URAP]

I like it too.

[flo32om]

i think two assemblies and allowing people outside the forum (i know a lot of people don't get bothered by joining the forums on this type of games) to vote are good ideas. then again I'm relatively new here, so I could be missing a lot.

[Fratellnoir]

i think two assemblies and allowing people outside the forum (i know a lot of people don't get bothered by joining the forums on this type of games) to vote are good ideas. then again I'm relatively new here, so I could be missing a lot.

 

This is exactly why the Gameside needs some chamber to act as the voice of the region.

Unlike flo32om, many will not join the forum.

 

By adding a in Game chamber we also add value to the game itself by providing something else that can be done in NS rather than people having to divide their time between forum and region

[Fratellnoir]

On the subject of in game regional polls, can anyone tell me who said this:

 

 

Are you kidding me?  It's an outstanding tool on which to base political upheaval.  I will bet this is the best thing to happen to the large scale R/D (inter-regional politial) game since the Farkers came to town.

 

With regards to flooding the votes with puppets there is a method which could alleviate the problem

 

If a snapshot of the nations resident in the region is taken before announcing the pool via this little facility, a comparison can be made with the list of voters that participated - any that are not on the first list but on the second could be discarded.

 

Its not a perfect solution, but would at least mean that anyone seeking to rig the polls would have to maintain puppets in the region on the off chance that a snap vote was called

 

If you wanted to go further into the issue of *polling puppets" there are ways of checking activity of nations to determine their true nature

 

As for Darkesia's assertion that "Feeder delegates are ego maniacal power mongers. We don't do subservient. Not in our nature", implying that such a system would not be adopted it is perhaps timely to remind anybody in a position of power (especially and elected post) that they are public servants, not hereditary monarchs.[/size]

 

As the FAQ states "Delegates are elected: if you don't like yours, it's up to you to get her unelected!"