Motion to Condemn Stujenske and Recognizing the Lazarene Underground Movement

[URAP]

Stay neutral and wait for a cool down, then reach out diplomatically.

[Llamas]

I will say this: Should Stuj condemn 94 Block and state that he does not consider himself affiliated with forum destroyers, I will withdraw this motion.

[Darkesia]

I believe you misunderstand the nature of Stu's position. 

 

If I am to understand correctly, Stu is a place holder with no power or voice.  In effect, the legitimate leader of Lazarus is comatose. 

The problem with this is that we now have no means of communicating with them.  Compounding this problem is the revelation that the NPO was behind both this "autocoup" and the previous government.  So, we cannot withdraw support from one puppet government to another one.

 

It is none of our business, until the people of Lazarus decide what they want.  Then it will be our time to decide if we wish to open relations or not.

 

Heck, right now, if we want a relationship with either government, all we need do is go to TP.

[punkdaddy]

This is a concerning turn of events. As a note, a number of months ago I made mention that TWP (I said TNP) was not TP.

 

I stick to that. Dark, I have to say that I have never been as concerned with our own sovereignty than I am right now. What we're seeing from the NPO is that their stance that "everyone's the NPO" makes it dangerous for every GCR in which a member of TP is in a leadership role. 

[Darkesia]

The truth is that I don't have any say whatsoever in what you do in the forums.  So, if the forum government decides to become an exclusive club that calls everyone a security risk, that is entirely up to them.  I wonder if I would be good enough to pass the entry criteria.  Not likely.  

 

That being said, I and the Guardians and many here on the forum are not blind.

 

Despite what others might have lead you to believe.

[punkdaddy]

Not sure who the "others" are you are referring to, but I think my point is that the NPO has been putting their fingers in a number of regions. Looking at AMOM's justification for why the NPO could usurp Lazarus tells the world that the NPO has an agenda to increase its reach as far as possible.

 

I'm sure you guys are not blind. Come on now, that seemed to be an overreaction to what I said. What I am saying is that the NPO is looking to expand and what better place to expand than in TWP that has been led by the same team for years. As a former guardian (still I was presently), I know we are not blind to many things. 

[Elegarth]

I believe PD's comments are out of line. If they are directed towards me, my friend, I personally think you know little of me as to realize if I am or not a security threat. If this is not directed at me, I would have to wonder where or why. Not all players are incapable of handling different personas under the same name, and fortunately, my work on TWP thus far shows it. I personally believe people should be judged on real achievements and work instead than on their other relations in a game full of complex relationships.

However, I do not wish to enter into a discussion of create a problem. It is not the place nor the right reason either.

On a side note, as current and temporary prime minister, I agree that the will of the Lazarene people is not clear, and reflecting the current state of the In-Game embassy, I'm inclined to close our in-forum embassy as well, until things are cleared or the in-game embassy is re-established. However, I'll like to see other Assembly Member opinions.

[punkdaddy]

Elegarth - I do know the NPO quite well. I know their tactics even better. What has occurred today is neither a surprise nor a shock. 

 

If you would like to be personally offended by my comments that's your prerogative. And I disagree, this is the place to hold such discussions. If not here, where?

 

As for Lazarus, I'm little concerned that there is (yet) another regime change. In TWP we have always drawn a clear distinction between forum governments and the sitting delegate. Lazarus can sort out their own crap. What concerns me is the decision by the NPO to usurp - or annex - a GCR. That concerns me and if you think it's offensive that I'm concerned that we have prominent NPO members in our government, nothing I can do about it.

[Elegarth]

You have - indeed - your right to be wrong. Go ahead.

[The Poo Dynasty]

Concern for forum destruction amongst the NS community seems to be at an all time low, at least outside TWP.  Players on both sides have worked with forum crashers recently and few seem to care.  Bummer I guess.

[Consular]

I'd be lying if I didn't say the whole thing concerned me. Not the coup -- I don't care what a Delegate does -- but the external seizure of power by another region, namely The Pacific, which is a gross violation of Lazarus' sovereignty. Just to be clear I don't think anyone has any right to any region, so I'm not ideologically outraged or anything, I just think we should recognise it for what it is -- a move of imperialist aggression by The Pacific.

 

To be perfectly clear this is not a concern about TWP or Elegarth or anything, the former of which I love and the latter I trust well enough. I'm just speaking about Lazarus.

[Cormac]

A few observations:

 

1. It's been my understanding of The West Pacific's position toward game mechanics that its recognition of in-game Delegates is not absolute. Sure, The West Pacific recognizes a Delegate who is kept in power with native endorsements even if the forum government and other governments consider that Delegate rogue. Is it not a problem, though, when the Delegate loses dozens of native endorsements over the span of a few days, and those endorsements are replaced by the endorsements of foreign imperialists from the NPO and foreign raiders? Is it not a problem when that Delegate would have lost power with the withdrawal of native endorsements, but is kept in power by foreign endorsements? Is it not a problem when this is admitted to be a takeover by a foreign government? And if it is not a problem, how is that consistent with The West Pacific's regional sovereigntist stance?

 

2. The West Pacific's position on Lazarus aside, the NPO's statement should be concerning, as Punk Daddy argues. Is this a region with which The West Pacific seriously wants to maintain an alliance? The NPO statement makes clear that it basically regards the ultimate destiny of all Feeders and Sinkers to be joining the New Pacific Order, either voluntarily or in the same manner as Lazarus (i.e., by force). That is imperialism, it is certainly not respect for regional sovereignty, and the disrespect for regional sovereignty extends to The West Pacific as well as to other Feeders and Sinkers. I think The West Pacific should be taking a serious look at its alliance with the NPO and I very much agree with Punk Daddy that being more cautious about NPO officials in this government is wise. Sorry, Senator Elegarth, but if you don't want people to hold you in suspicion because of the actions of the NPO, that would be a lot easier if you were not tacitly supporting their imperialist aggression against sovereign regions by remaining in their Senate. If you had serious problems with this direction, you would not still be representing the NPO as a Senator.

 

3. Regarding the forum destruction problem, putting 94 Block aside it should be pointed out that Senator Feux has taken the former Lazarus forum offline. If the forum remains offline and remains inaccessible to its former community, in an act that can only be seen as malicious when put in context, that is forum destruction just as deletion of the forum is forum destruction. According to COPS, taking a forum "out of service" is forum destruction and taking it permanently offline to deprive a community of its history and information certainly qualifies.

 

All in all, I think this calls for a serious reevaluation of The West Pacific's approach to the New Pacific Order. The West Pacific terminated relations with Gatesville, a long time ally, for far less.

[punkdaddy]

You have - indeed - your right to be wrong. Go ahead.

 

Time tells all. I've been at this nearly 11 years. I've been right more often than I've been wrong.

 

In this instance I would love to be wrong. But common sense tells me I'm most likely right.

[Consular]

Ewww Cormac stop making sense.

 

I'm not advocating we do anything brash. Impulse leads to disaster. But we may wish to watch this situation closely as it develops, and adjust our stance accordingly.

 

Or we could ignore it all entirely I suppose.

[Darkesia]

On my phone, so keeping this short. Feux was forum owner from the beginning. We can't call that malicious destruction unless we are attempting to twist and distort the rules to fit them to a desired outcome. That is a rule 2 violation. That being said, yes, I am concerned with the land grab going on in the NPO. No, I am not concerned, even a little, about Elegarth. Not even a little. Pes/Milo/Yao on the other hand...

[Llamas]

Oh god... Am I... Agreeing with Cormac? *gasps*

 

But seriously, his point makes a good deal of sense. I am very much afraid of what the NPO has the capacity to do here in TWP, and we should reevaluate our alliance with them to see if we really should be keeping them as an ally.

 

The problem is that this means we'll be needing help. If the NPO did this in Lazarus, we'll need to be certain that they can't do it here, and that means endorsements capable of being redeployed. UIAF recently collapsed, so we can hardly turn there. I suggest reaching out to the independent powers: TEP, TNP, and TSP, all of which are capable of fielding a powerful force, and all of whom I believe would serve as trustworthy allies, should we seek out their assistance. Building new ties to new allies to make sure we are well defended must be a top priority for the next administration.

[URAP]

Oh no, URA showed up. Time to prepare your negative comments, people.

I am ACUTELY concerned with the coup in Lazarus. I wouldn't have such a problem if the delegate was the one behind it. However, seeing that TP, specifically, the NPO is behind this makes me nauseous. I have been hanging around a UCR and they are scared of the GCRs due to the fact that they find them either;

-A ) NPO targets

Or

-B ) NPO controlled.

This is IMMENSELY harmful to our reputation and relationship with other regions. We need to separate ourselves from the NPO, both in the minds of the players and in reality. I agree with dark in that elegarth seems fine, however, Pestarzt/Milograd/Yao is NOT someone I feel comfortable with. Yao is on the Lazarus WFE as someone to endorse. We need to strengthen our diplomatic position with UCRs, especially influential ones.

[Llamas]

Oh no, URA showed up. Time to prepare your negative comments, people.

I am ACUTELY concerned with the coup in Lazarus. I wouldn't have such a problem if the delegate was the one behind it. However, seeing that TP, specifically, the NPO is behind this makes me nauseous. I have been hanging around a UCR and they are scared of the GCRs due to the fact that they find them either;

-A ) NPO targets

Or

-B ) NPO controlled.

This is IMMENSELY harmful to our reputation and relationship with other regions. We need to separate ourselves from the NPO, both in the minds of the players and in reality. I agree with dark in that elegarth seems fine, however, Pestarzt/Milograd/Yao is NOT someone I feel comfortable with. Yao is on the Lazarus WFE as someone to endorse. We need to strengthen our diplomatic position with UCRs, especially influential ones.

Agreed.

[punkdaddy]

On my phone, so keeping this short. Feux was forum owner from the beginning. We can't call that malicious destruction unless we are attempting to twist and distort the rules to fit them to a desired outcome. That is a rule 2 violation. That being said, yes, I am concerned with the land grab going on in the NPO. No, I am not concerned, even a little, about Elegarth. Not even a little. Pes/Milo/Yao on the other hand...

 

Perhaps your lack of concern is precisely why Elegarth is here.

 

Also - I am not suggesting members of the NPO need be rooted from the ranks of TWPers. I am simply stating that it would be foolhardy to not consider that the NPO is interested in gaining as large a foothold within TWP as is possible, up to and including the delegate chair. 

 

Towards this end, I'd like to ask you Dark if you've considered Elegarth as a successor. If you have, then I rest my case. If you haven't then I feel that much more secure.

[URAP]

Towards this end, I'd like to ask you Dark if you've considered Elegarth as a successor. If you have, then I rest my case. If you haven't then I feel that much more secure.

Darkesia has made clear that she intends to name a far newer nation as delegate. Some such as myself, or fish, etc.

[Little Sealand]

Perhaps your lack of concern is precisely why Elegarth is here

I don't believe that Dark is wrong about Elegarth, I myself don't ever believe he would go against TWP. He's been here for a long time, and has helped us a lot.

[punkdaddy]

I don't believe that Dark is wrong about Elegarth, I myself don't ever believe he would go against TWP. He's been here for a long time, and has helped us a lot.

quite famous last words.

[Little Sealand]

quite famous last words.

Famous last words are "parachute don't fail me now!"

 

Elegarth has done nothing to warrant any suspicion, and just because he is involved with the NPO does not mean he wants to overthrow the TWP government. We should however, still be cautious of the NPO, should they decide to become more "involved" with TWP, and Elegarth was here a sizable amount of time before the Lazarus coup.

[URAP]

Famous last words are "parachute don't fail me now!"

 

Elegarth has done nothing to warrant any suspicion, and just because he is involved with the NPO does not mean he wants to overthrow the TWP government. We should however, still be cautious of the NPO, should they decide to become more "involved" with TWP, and Elegarth was here a sizable amount of time before the Lazarus coup.

Agreed.

[Cormac]

On my phone, so keeping this short. Feux was forum owner from the beginning. We can't call that malicious destruction unless we are attempting to twist and distort the rules to fit them to a desired outcome. That is a rule 2 violation. That being said, yes, I am concerned with the land grab going on in the NPO. No, I am not concerned, even a little, about Elegarth. Not even a little. Pes/Milo/Yao on the other hand...

 

Darkesia, with all due respect, this doesn't make any sense. Let me eliminate the proper nouns here to demonstrate how little sense it makes:

 

"No, I am not concerned, even a little, about a current Senator of the New Pacific Order. Not even a little. A former Senator of the New Pacific Order on the other hand..."

 

To be clear, I'm not saying not to be concerned about Pestarzt/Milograd. That's just good sense. But it doesn't make any sense not to be concerned about Elegarth as well, while he is serving as a Senator of the New Pacific Order, it just doesn't. The Senate is the primary governing institution of the NPO these days with Krulltopia playing a minor governing role. The NPO Senate is carrying out this imperialist aggression against other Feeders and Sinkers. If Elegarth actually disagrees with that direction, he needs to at the very least resign from the Senate if not from the NPO altogether. Expecting anyone to believe he is not a threat to the sovereignty of any other Feeder or Sinker while he is serving in the NPO Senate is expecting too much though.

 

Oh god... Am I... Agreeing with Cormac? *gasps*

 

But seriously, his point makes a good deal of sense. I am very much afraid of what the NPO has the capacity to do here in TWP, and we should reevaluate our alliance with them to see if we really should be keeping them as an ally.

 

The problem is that this means we'll be needing help. If the NPO did this in Lazarus, we'll need to be certain that they can't do it here, and that means endorsements capable of being redeployed. UIAF recently collapsed, so we can hardly turn there. I suggest reaching out to the independent powers: TEP, TNP, and TSP, all of which are capable of fielding a powerful force, and all of whom I believe would serve as trustworthy allies, should we seek out their assistance. Building new ties to new allies to make sure we are well defended must be a top priority for the next administration.

 

I hate to defend the imperialists, but the collapse of the UIAF does not mean the collapse of its former constituent regions. We have treaties with the regions, not with the UIAF. I'm not sure about The New Inquisition, but Albion and The Land of Kings and Emperors are both still capable of fielding powerful forces, far more numerous than anything TEP or TSP have to offer. So yes, we can still turn there, and given that we already have treaties on the books with those regions, we should turn there if and when necessary.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong for suggesting new alliances, by the way, I'm just saying that with the exception of the alliance with the NPO, there is nothing wrong with the alliances TWP has now. I may not like the imperialist regions, personally, but they will honor their treaty obligations to TWP should any threat from the NPO (or anyone else) arise, and they are still more than capable of doing so.