the political groups (WECA and Opposition)

[Consular]

I don't think either group has got things particularly right. WECA is right in that the Guardian system effectively protects TWP, but all that rather melodramatic nonsense about northpacifican corruption puts me off a bit. I suppose a compromise would be far too wild and illogical?

[Intelligent Holograms]

I am always open to talking.

[Consular]

It occurs to me that I might have implied I had a solution to this problem. I don't, unfortunately. Actually, calling it a problem doesn't quite fit; political opposition is quite healthy (in a democracy anyway). I guess I'm just completely confused as to what you guys are arguing about? According to Dark one should join the Opposition if they possess a wild and irrational love for democracy in every context, so I'm guessing that this is about whether Guardians should be elected or something? :/

[Intelligent Holograms]

It's good that new players are coming in asking questions and don't worry, a solution (if there is one) will not be found soon.

 

The Opposition follows the principle that the ingame and offsite should be extensions of each other, working in tandem with each other for the betterment of both. We also believe that the principles of democracy should come through in the elections of Government and possibly working for a government where this is possible. We believe that Guardians have no place in TWP and that they are unnecessary, whilst we do accept the great service they have done for our region. WECA believes in clinging to ideals of the past, TWP's tradition; we believe that TWP should look to the future and throw off the past.

 

IH

 

 

(Both sides argued extensively a few months ago, links: Wow...these forums are dead...where is everyone? was the most active.)

[Consular]

Hahaha I'm detecting a slight bias in your explanation but nonetheless thanks.

[Intelligent Holograms]

Bias, me? No... 

[Eli]

IH is biased, that's ok it is their right to be.

 

 

Eli on the other hand disagrees that Guardians cling to any past, the development of the Guardian stucture was a reaction to the abject failure of so called democracy governance in NS GCR. And that failure whilst epically displayed over and over again in The North Pacific, has been on display here in the past, when Delegates past here were dictated to by forum players with no game status.

 

I believe the Delegate in a feeder is supreme to any forum based RP government and that the RP govt. has to recognize that fact

[Darkesia]

Believe it or not, I am a little more moderate than Eli in my WECA stance.  (Don't faint)

I am more of a separate but equal sort of person.  I believe the Delegate has supremacy in-game and cannot be controlled in any manner by the forum government.  But I also believe that the forum community cannot be dictated to by the Delegate.  I also firmly believe that NSdemocracy when applied to the in-game construct is an abject failure leading only to rifts in the community and encouraging hostility toward delegates.

[Intelligent Holograms]

In the founding post of WECA, Eli, you declared that WECA and it's Guardians were taking power for the "restoration of traditional West Pacific values of order, discipline, and allegiance to the Guardians." It's my belief that Eli enjoyed the stagnation that had overcome TWP, why else would he attempt to take power during the resurgence of activity?

 

The Guardians have often stated that they want no part in any regional governance, this is clearly not the case. The only aim of Guardians (Eli at least) is to make sure that Dictatorship reigns in TWP and, naturally, they do all of this without engaging in debate and without leaving their protected forum. The Guardians are not guarding TWP's wishes, they are guarding their own agenda.

 

Their seems to be some confusion on the forum elected Delegate front. Nobody forces ingame WA nations to endorse the forum elected Delegate and yet they usually do. So perhaps a compromise, the forum elects a nation to become Delegate and then, if they want to, WA nations can endorse this nation and he can take the ingame seat. This maintains WA nations electing their own Delegate and the Delegate can work on the offsite forum. If the Delegate then wants to work with the forum he can do so, if he does not he can, like Chairman Milograd, take power and rule how he likes. 

[Consular]

I thought the purpose of the guardians was to make us basically invulnerable against invasions? Consider, without a founder and with only small armed forces we would otherwise be in a rather exposed position. The delegate would be forced to enforce harsh endorsement caps to prevent insurgency, like in the Pacific. Nobody wants another Pacific (or at least I don't)

[Intelligent Holograms]

In theory, yes, but in practice the Guardians are hardly ever used to stop an invasion; most of the time, the Delegacy is threatened and taken by the Guardians themselves. There is simply no nation in NS that has a military large enough to take the Delegacy, even if several militaries worked together, what would they achieve? TWP is a virtual fortress with it's high number of active ingame players and a Delegate with a large endorsement count.

[Consular]

But you don't think other regions might notice our decision to relinquish the guardians and decide we are vulnerable? Wait, who cares? Let them come, we will destroy them. Anyway given the guardians are all trusted members of twp is it that great a problem for them to threaten the delegacy? Better them than some outside force.

[Intelligent Holograms]

The infighting that the Guardians bring often makes TWP look petty and certainly 'silly' to NS. I mean, if you can't live up to the Guardian badge and protect TWP, then what are you for? Why have the Guardian badge at all?

 

Not that long ago, Eli (Wickedly Evil People, a Guardian), took a run at the Delegacy and about half an hour before update, Yy (Yy4u also a Guardian and Delegate at the time) stood down whilst ejecting Guardian Darkesia from the region. We are only vulnerable due to the image this gives the rest of NS. No other region has Guardians in the style that TWP does and I'm sure that we could do perfectly fine without them. 

[Consular]

Then maybe we just need to elect some more responsible guardians? Frankly, is there any point in saying that we don't want guardians? they are too powerful to remove by this point really. Even if we take away their official role, they would still wield a great amount of influence.

On another note, the fact that no other region has them is a good thing. It makes twp unique.

[Intelligent Holograms]

Guardians do not get elected, they are appointed. I'm sure, with enough support, the Guardians will step down.

 

TWP should not be defined by it's use of Guardians. There is much more to TWP than the fact there are Guardians and we are unique by more than that.

[Consular]

I'm aware they don't get elected, I was proposing that perhaps they should be? So instead of going all the way to a wild total democracy, perhaps a sort of democratic oligarchy would be a good compromise?

[Intelligent Holograms]

That would be a good compromise, though I doubt the current Guardians nor WECA would agree to it.

[Consular]

Well, we can try.

[Intelligent Holograms]

Indeed.

[Tweedy]

Just as a point of interest, in this democratic as we can get-it off-site forum, (as opposed to the mostly undemocratic in-game), if the Delegate and his/her Guardians have a "protected forum", why does the Opposition not have the same privilege?

[Darkesia]

The Opposition has every right to have a protected forum.  All one need do is ask Winni. 

Along with being the only region formally using the Guardian System, TWP has the best and most neutral forum root admin in all of NS.  Seriously.  Take advantage of that fact.

[Tweedy]

Not that I could give a convincing argument on why the Opposition would need a protected forum other than, because the present Government/Delegate has one...but it's up to them.

[Intelligent Holograms]

To be honest, I don't think we need one. If at some point we do, it's good to know that the option is open to us.

[Eli]

The Guardian system was implemented by TAO when he was Delegate to protect his Delegacy from an invasion, he had Cave Canem take over for him and expend his influence banjecting invaders then CC stepped down and put TAO back in. The Guardian system has introduced new Delegates to the game and the region that would never make it in a fake Democracy at a forum. Since then having the most influence in the region, I've protected the Delegate, not chosen the Delegate. Believe me I had nothing to do with choosing PD, ED, or Yy4u but all served well and were good delegates in their own way. All of those folks were chosen by the previous Delegate in consultation with the RP government, but neither dictated to the other.

 

Having non game playing forumite role players running the region and dictating to the Delegate is asinine in my opinion and has never worked in NS since its inception in November 2002. It always fails.

 

also IMO the activity boost was because of the takeover of the Delegacy by WEP not in spite of it. just saying.

[Karland]

Sorta makes you think what's the point of having this forum and any of the jazz we have running at all then, really.