Elegarth Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 It has been mentioned by many members of the HGA that we should not hold open embassies with NPO and NPL due to the current situation. We could, should the HGA decide it, close both in-forum embassies as a show of our condemnation of the actions they've taken. However, we must also remember that currently TWP is allied to NPO at least, and this most also be taken into consideration. We must also remember we don't control the in-game embasies, Lazarus embasy having been already closed. We should also consider that TWP policy will usually consider the elected delegate of a region as the lawful holder of that position. (I must be clear I'm not making judgements, just establishing some facts to be considered). Some of the proposals include the closure of our in-forum embassies with them, or with 1 of them, etc. At a point, it was even proposed to open official relations with the LUM (which currently has no representative region, which could also complicate that... why don't they get a region meanwhile and use it to legitimize themselves while trying to take back the Laz delegacy, I dunno...) I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on the matter. Let's try to be logical and rational instead of hot blooded or emotional? The later seems to close down discussions rather shortly and without much result :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormac Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I'm in favor of closing the NPO's forum embassy. Even if TWP's philosophy/policy holds that the Delegate of a region -- he is not elected, by the way -- is the lawful holder of the position, which is absurd, that doesn't mean TWP has to be okay with him holding onto his Delegacy with the support of foreign raiders and forum destroyers. I would be in favor of recognizing the LUS and granting them the use of the Lazarus forum embassy. If we aren't going to do that, we should close it. I would imagine the LUS doesn't have another region because it is the forum community of Lazarus, not another region. In my view, it would actually lose legitimacy be forming a user-created region as a base of operations. Its region is Lazarus. I don't think the treaty with the NPO is a problem. That treaty was ratified by fiat of the Delegate without consulting the forum community, so by TWP's philosophy it is the Delegate's treaty, not the forum community's, and we shouldn't be bound by it. Llamas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A fish in the sea Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 This seems like a tough decision, but since we closed our embassy with the NLO, I feel like we should also close embassies with the NPO. Llamas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reçueçn Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I'm in favor of closing the NPO's forum embassy. Even if TWP's philosophy/policy holds that the Delegate of a region -- he is not elected, by the way -- is the lawful holder of the position, which is absurd, that doesn't mean TWP has to be okay with him holding onto his Delegacy with the support of foreign raiders and forum destroyers. I would be in favor of recognizing the LUS and granting them the use of the Lazarus forum embassy. If we aren't going to do that, we should close it. I would imagine the LUS doesn't have another region because it is the forum community of Lazarus, not another region. In my view, it would actually lose legitimacy be forming a user-created region as a base of operations. Its region is Lazarus. I am in %100 agreement with this. Cormac's third paragraph, however, was a little unclear to me. My opinion is that we should both close our in-forum embassy with them and request that Darkesia close our in-game embassy with them. This is easily justified along the lines of what Cormac mentioned and what Elegarth said is our regional policy--regional sovereignty, as well as opposition to delegates being held in place by foreign votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drop Your Pants Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Ya for the pulling the NPO embassy, don't care about the new Laz lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 TWP's stance (not mine) has been that you kind of had it coming if you included forum powers with regional powers. While I disagree, I think even people who stick to that ideology shouldn't resort to technicalities. Stujenske has gone rogue, and it's just to maintain relations with the popular, native government- TWP is arguably the most neutral of the GCRs, but we should listen to common sense and support the native and popular alternative to Stu's coup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkdaddy Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 According to the in-game treaty listing, we're allies with The Pacific. Wouldn't closing the embassy harm relations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 According to the in-game treaty listing, we're allies with The Pacific. Wouldn't closing the embassy harm relations? However, we must also remember that currently TWP is allied to NPO at least, and this most also be taken into consideration. Ditto. We could close Lazarus and simply release a censorship of NPOs action, if we'd rather do that. I'm just throwing ideas to the hat at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 According to the in-game treaty listing, we're allies with The Pacific. Wouldn't closing the embassy harm relations? Yes, it would. The point of this is to issue strong diplomatic sanctions to show the Pacific that: 1. We strongly disapprove of what they have done in Lazarus, subverting the native government and destroying the people's sovereignty. 2. We recognize that this is a veiled threat to us. If the Pacific could infiltrate Lazarus over a period of months or maybe even years, how do we know they won't do the same to us? Closing the embassy will send a powerful message that we realize this, but we will not back down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drop Your Pants Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 If the Pacific could infiltrate Lazarus over a period of months or maybe even years Defiantly the year range. We were fairly dumb in Laz but not that dumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkdaddy Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 As blunt a person I am, I understand well the need for temperance and diplomacy. The question our leadership must answer is this - do we wish to still be allied with the NPO? If the answer is no, then everything else is very easy. If the answer is yes, then our leadership must then answer if we condone, decry, or simply want to ignore what is happening in Lazarus. Depending on that answer, that would help us navigate where we go next. I've never been a fan of the citizens dictating foreign policy and as a mere citizen now, I don't intent to change my normal inclination simply because I decry the current NPO tactics. Were I the head of FA, I'd want assurances from the NPO that they have not intended nor do they intend to undermine the workings of TWP. I'd want it in writing and publicly displayed. Less important would be them actually doing it then their response to the question. how they responded would tell us all we needed to know about our allies. For now, my opinion is that there's no justification for closing the embassy but I leave the diplomacy to the powers that be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 For now, my opinion is that there's no justification for closing the embassy but I leave the diplomacy to the powers that be. That is what my personal opinion is right now, but I also feel we have no reason to recognize the NLO, nor the LUM. I am, however, not the best person to reach NPO right now for several obvious reasons, so I would not go myself to ask the questions PD mentions, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 So, having been on holiday and just now coming back online - can someone give me a quick rundown of what has happened in the last week to cause all this? I have never supported the idea of aligning with forum destroyers in any situation or any realm and have caused major wars and lost position because of it in the past so I would very much like a candid description of what has happened privately or otherwise. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 So, having been on holiday and just now coming back online - can someone give me a quick rundown of what has happened in the last week to cause all this? I have never supported the idea of aligning with forum destroyers in any situation or any realm and have caused major wars and lost position because of it in the past so I would very much like a candid description of what has happened privately or otherwise. Thanks. Long story short: The NPO couped Lazarus and is working with 94 Block, a forum destroyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Long story short: The NPO couped Lazarus and is working with 94 Block, a forum destroyer. Technically, 94B is working with Ainur, after having been banjected from Laz and TP, but Ainur SEEMS to be working with the NLO/Laz thing, somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Long story short: The NPO couped Lazarus and is working with 94 Block, a forum destroyer. Yeah, that. That is what I was asking about because I have it on very good authority that no such collaboration is taking place. As for the rest, it would appear that the legally selected Delegate of Lazarus has opted to work with The Pacific. I am not certain it can be stated definitively that The Pacific somehow couped Lazarus, which was a very close ally to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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