Llamas Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 I support this. I move for a vote on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 We would need to Move it to formal discussion first selecting a semi-final text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestarzt Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I strongly oppose electing officers at this point. People get elected and then do nothing, and no one likes voting over and over again until we find the right person for the task. Appointments by the Speaker makes more sense, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 That is another interesting way to go. It would ensure one active person can direct stuff to get done without going through all the loops and using those truly active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 I actually like that idea; appointments allow for much faster replacement of inactive cabinet members and more accountability. However, I see a couple of problems with this: 1. I fail to see how the appointment of individuals to offices in the executive branch would be particularly related to the legislature, and as such it really doesn't fall under the Speaker's purview. However, we also have another problem: The Prime Minister doesn't have any real authority and the position is currently completely pointless, something which I and many other members of the region have noted is a problem. I propose we kill two birds with one stone and give the Prime Minister authority to appoint the cabinet and make him head of the cabinet as a whole. With this, the Prime Minister would be able to serve as the actual Head of Government in the region. 2. Appointment would have the side effect of creating an unfortunate lack of accountability to the people, which could prove to be a major problem. I propose we fix this by granting the HGA the right to hold a vote of no confidence to replace a minister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Sealand Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Plus it would also bring in the possibility a appointment could end up in favoritism, over actual qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestarzt Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Well, let the assembly be able to recall appointed officials. Just don't make them need to approve them first, for the love of my sanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consular Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I fully support the expansion of the office of the Speaker to fulfil executive roles. It's exactly what I envision for the office. As for elections for officers... If they are to be subservient to the Speaker it would make sense to have them appointed rather than individually elected, as the latter would make them only really controlled by the Assembly. Unless we give the Speaker the authority to dismiss officers? But that is giving the Speaker a LOT of power. I think I'd prefer they be elected and individually accountable. The Speaker already has their hands full liasoning to the Delegate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 I fully support the expansion of the office of the Speaker to fulfil executive roles. It's exactly what I envision for the office. But then it ceases to be the office of Speaker, and instead would serve a role equivalent to that of Prime Minister but with a different title attached and with the job of keeping the HGA running smoothly on top of that. As for elections for officers... If they are to be subservient to the Speaker it would make sense to have them appointed rather than individually elected, as the latter would make them only really controlled by the Assembly. Unless we give the Speaker the authority to dismiss officers? But that is giving the Speaker a LOT of power. To be honest, it's not really that much power. Regions routinely give Heads of Government the authority to appoint and dismiss Cabinet officials – e.g., TNP and TEP. It's quite a normal thing; in fact, it's probably a more common way to select Cabinets than direct elections. I think I'd prefer they be elected and individually accountable. You see, Arch, that's the problem. If they're elected, they're not accountable; or, at the very least, they are significantly less accountable than they would be under an appointed system. Elections, recalls, impeachments, and votes of no confidence are all much messier ways to handle things than a simple appointment or removal by a delegate. At the same time, however, under the system I'm proposing candidates will also be individually accountable to the HGA, seeing as how they can be removed by a majority vote in favor. The Speaker already has their hands full liasoning to the Delegate. And this is why we need to keep the Prime Minister separate from the job of the Speaker. Handling the duties of running the forums, setting the overall foreign affairs agenda, and keeping the cabinet active are already going to be a difficult enough of a job. If you add management of an often chaotic legislative process that requires enough time and effort that it has its own post in every major region I've been to? Shit, there's no way they'll ever be able to get anything done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I think at this point it would be hard to find a commitment area between our two positions. I do agree that since the power of the community is the assembly, then the head of the assembly, the speaker, should have the authority over the executive council, specially if the executive is going to be executing those tasks that the assembly as a whole deems required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think at this point it would be hard to find a commitment area between our two positions. I do agree that since the power of the community is the assembly, then the head of the assembly, the speaker, should have the authority over the executive council, specially if the executive is going to be executing those tasks that the assembly as a whole deems required. But the thing is that the Prime Minister is already selected by the assembly. Having him head the Executive Council won't violate the principle of legislative supremacy; quite the opposite, in fact. By keeping the heads of the two respective branches, we will give the assembly independence to act on its own. If you make the Speaker act as head of the executive, as you are currently planning, it will make him a part of the executive branch. This proposal is quite possibly dangerous, as it centers a great deal of power in one person's hands. The Speaker is entrusted to organize the legislative branch, and as such the position is vulnerable to abuse by anyone who wants to control the legislature's actions. If someone who is in charge of the executive is also allowed to control the legislature, this is a situation that can easily be exploited for personal benefit, as all checks and balances which typically exist on the executive are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The prime minister Elegarth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 The prime minister Erm, yes. Could you, perhaps, give a bit more detail in your response? Here is my revised proposal for the Executive Council Act. The Executive Council Act 1. The Holy Grand Assembly hereby establishes the Executive Council of the West Pacific. a. The Executive Council will be tasked with carrying out all commands and laws of the regional legislature, defending the region's security, serving as an advisory body to the delegate, and promoting the regional welfare. b. The Executive Council will be headed by the Prime Minister, who will coordinate its activities, set its agenda, and assist all members of it in the completion of their duties. c. The Executive Council will consist of Prime Minister and the Officers of Foreign Affairs, World Assembly Affairs, Community Affairs, and Home Affairs. d. The Speaker and Chief Justice shall be honorary members of the Executive Council, and have access to all Executive Council communications, but shall not be considered full members of the body as they belong to the legislative and judicial, rather than executive, branches of the government. 2. The Holy Grand Assembly hereby establishes the Offices of Foreign Affairs, World Assembly Affairs, Community Affairs, and Home Affairs, each of which shall be headed by a specific Officer and have a specific role. a. The Officer of Foreign Affairs will, in consultation with the Prime Minister, be responsible for coordinating diplomatic interaction with other regions. b. The Officer of World Assembly Affairs will be responsible for educating the nations of The West Pacific in regard to World Assembly matters, advising the delegate on how to vote, and advocating for proposals which he or she considers beneficial to the region's interests within the Security Council. c. The Officer of Community Affairs will be responsible for facilitating community affairs, including but not necessarily limited to integration, culture, and role play. d. The Officer of Home Affairs will be responsible for convincing recently-founded nations within TWP to remain within the region, encouraging nations to be more active on the Regional Message Board and offline forums, and educate the people of the region so that they may grow to be active and productive citizens. 2. The Officers of the Executive Council will respond to the Prime Minister, and will be held responsible before the Prime Minister of their actions and omissions in the execution of their duties. a. The Prime Minister may appoint and dismiss any of the four officers at will. b. The Regional Assembly may remove any members of the Executive Council through a vote of no confidence. In order to succeed, over three-fifths of all votes cast must be in favor of removing the incumbent minister. 3. Officers of the Executive Council may appoint deputies to assist in the execution of their prescribed duties. a. Deputies may be removed by the legislature through a vote of no confidence, which in order to succeed will require a simple majority of all votes. b. Deputies may also be removed by executive order of an Officer. 4. The Regional Assembly may change the names of the Executive Council or any positions on it by majority vote. 6. The ministries of World Assembly Affairs, Foreign Affairs, Interior Affairs, and Make-Believe that were established prior to this Act are vacated and rendered null and void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraketopia Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Everything looks good, but it seems really weird to have the Chief Justice on the Executive council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Everything looks good, but it seems really weird to have the Chief Justice on the Executive council. Edited; I've taken the Chief Justice off the Executive Council and instead made him an honorary member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Erm, yes. Could you, perhaps, give a bit more detail in your response? Stupid mobile phone >_> I tried to say that the PM does not even exists in current legislation, and I see no need to bloat our government with more people that does less. What is the actual work of the PM in your proposal? Is he just a glorified global moderator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestarzt Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 A global mod would be better as just being a global mod, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consular Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Stupid mobile phone >_> I tried to say that the PM does not even exists in current legislation, and I see no need to bloat our government with more people that does less. What is the actual work of the PM in your proposal? Is he just a glorified global moderator? ^^^ I'd dispute everything Llamas said about my post, but I'm tired and can't particularly be bothered right now. Perhaps tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URAP Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I see no benefit for my commentary to be posted on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llamas Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 I tried to say that the PM does not even exists in current legislation, and I see no need to bloat our government with more people that does less. What is the actual work of the PM in your proposal? Is he just a glorified global moderator? Glorified global moderator? Not at all. The office PM is designed to be Head of Government of TWP, serving in a capacity similar to that of a Prime Minister in a semi-presidential system of governance. The office of PM is designed to be to the offsite forum government what the Delegate is to the in-game government, and to coordinate the Executive Council's actions to ensure that the region acts in a coherent in logical way, rather than five different ministers each trying to pull the region in a different direction and doing nothing but tearing it apart. The thing is, however, we need a cabinet ASAP. Darkesia advised that we pick a new cabinet a freaking month ago. I move this to formal discussion; the general idea has solidified, the only debate that's really still ongoing is whether we should keep the office of Prime Minister or not, which is only tangentially related. We can sort that out in formal discussion. I recommend we just hold a poll to determine the issue of which draft should be voted on after formal discussion closes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestarzt Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 This debate is getting cloggy. I'd say start a new thread for that step of the process, Llamas. I think we're all confused at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Please check and read updated procedures for the HGA, in case you need / want to continue discussion on this topic: http://www.westpacific.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1236-standard-procedures-of-the-regional-assembly-speaker-declaration/ Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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