Llamas
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Posts posted by Llamas
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You know, I've actually thought through this a bit more, and I believe that with some work it could certainly become not only practical, but highly desirable for TWP. Notably, a few of the details go just a bit too far. Here's how I'd propose changing this to get it to function.
1. First, for this to work, we need to ensure that the in-game population is sufficiently informed to make an informed decision on this matter. For this, I believe that we should establish the official newspaper that has been in discussion for so long to act as an unbiased, accurate, and balanced source of information. By having the Ministry of Home Affairs write informational pieces along with opinion articles for both sides, we can ensure that voters know and understand what they are voting on. Combine this with promotion of the articles by mass TG, pinned dispatch, and WFE, and we'll have the largest and most envied base of informed voters in all of NS.
2. Furthermore, let's remember that we cannot force the Delegate to do anything. As such, what I would recommend is that our new constitution ask that the Delegate put all proposals to vote, and should they refuse, then we will use the forums to hold the vote. This way, we do not infringe upon the Delegate's in-game power, but can still keep the greater participation of democratic polls with their consent.
3. Finally, we'll need to balance out the handful of drawbacks to this idea by ensuring that at least a handful of the more active/experienced members of our region get to actually draft the bill, revise it, and check it for problems. This could be done by changing the process for drafting a bill so that instead of the anarchic free-for-all we've been having on the forums for the past few months, with everyone editing bills as it suits them and both disorder and inactivity being rampant, we'll have a much simpler process handled mostly by the Executive Council. The Executive Council would draft a law and put it on the forums for a period of about a week, in which any citizen can make recommendations as to how to improve the bill. After this has ended, the Executive Council will select a single draft to send to a vote before the region's WA population, ensuring that the draft has been thoroughly checked for any major problems. Of course, this could be open to abuse by an Executive Council seeking to completely control the legislative process; as such, I'd recommend that any citizen be allowed to create a petition on the forums, and should it receive a certain number of signatures, it will be put to a vote. Taken together, these powers give the forums an important advisory role to help protect TWP from mob rule while still making us NationStates' first true GCR democracy.
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Forum is open for anybody to post in, regardless of HGA membership. Whether you want to count the votes of those who don't have the mask is up to you, however, as Prime Minister.
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Glad to meet you! I've already talked to you on IRC.
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I like many of these ideas, Cormac. o7 Support.
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In any case, it hardly matters. Darkesia has given us the go-ahead and says she will work with this, and I don't see why any future delegate would be opposed to simply setting up a few polls from time to time.
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This also assumes your Delegate desires to participate in such a manner. I"m not saying that they won't want to help. But keep in mind that not all will want or have time for such things. If we choose to do this, it must be done as a sort of opinion poll only. If it's written into law, the thing collapses if the Delegate decides not to do it.
And if the delegate refuses to do it, I would expect a declaration of open rebellion to follow and the Guardians to work for the removal of that Delegate. In most regions, refusal to follow the law laid down by the government is considered just cause to remove the Delegate from power.
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I insist, voting in in-game polls allows for easy not even hard to perform puppet manipulation of the results
I feel like I've already explained this about 40 times. It's actually much easier to manipulate a vote on the forums than it is to manipulate an in-game vote. If I wanted to, I could have signed up on the forums using only a single proxy to cast another vote for myself and win the Prime Minister elections. By contrast, that's practically impossible with the in-game polls system; the WA has many, many checks to ensure a single individual cannot have more than one WA. Let's also remember that even if somebody managed to somehow get more than one WA into the region, which in and of itself is incredibly unlikely, this would not matter: a single vote is unlikely to change the course of a poll involving about sixty nations (The average size of a poll held in a GCR). By contrast, a single vote in an election involving twenty nations, which is very common on forums, can most certainly tip the balance. As to the idea of somebody moving their WA only to participate in a vote, I propose adding another requirement: That voters endorse the Delegate. So, if somebody needs to be endorsing the delegate for a week to vote, and it's impossible to know when a vote will come as votes will not be held on every bill but rather only when the Executive Council demands it... We have essentially said that if a foreigner wants to affect our voting in such a way that it will almost certainly not even change the outcome, they must contribute a significant amount of influence to our delegate and support them while simultaneously tying up their WA in such a way that they cannot participate in operations that could potentially harm TWP's interests abroad. That sounds like a definite win for the region to me.
Using in-game polls and other features for decisions puts a lot of trust in people not to make puppets or manipulate results.
While this can be avoided with certain filters, that alienates a lot of legitimate residents who don't meet that criteria, many active participants in the government don't have populations above 1 billion, myself included, and many are also not part of the WA, myself again included.
1. Read the above.
2. I would not require that nations have a population above 1 billion; that is a completely arbitrary distinction.
3. I already noted that special exemptions to the WA requirement could be made if a nation provided a good reason why their WA was not in the region.
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NOOOOO NOT THE EMPIRE *slaps Dali with a salmon to make him go away*
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I think we should just modify the old map we were previously using to suit our needs.
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Alright, then. I see a lot of people are opposed to the idea of a full-on bicameral legislature. Here's another compromise: How about we use polls to hold in-game plebiscites on particular matters?
Think California. For those of you who don't live in the state, I'll explain:
Whenever we have elections here in California, we also get to vote on different laws that have been recommended to us. The legislature often can't reach the full two-thirds majority necessary to institute a new tax or amend the constitution, for example; However, there's a clause in our constitution which allows us to hold a referendum on anything the legislature recommends by a majority vote, and if most of the population votes in favor, it becomes a part of the constitution. We could do something similar here: If a majority of the Executive Council supports a bill, it can be moved to a public referendum using in-game polls to quickly take into account what our region's WA population believes, which is much simpler and faster than the long, drawn-out, and messy process of pushing a bill through the HGA, and also gives those who are not on the forums legal rights.
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No. I earlier proposed on-site votes and still support this, but that should not be confused with dissolving the forum in its entirety. The forum offers multiple advantages over in-game votes, including ease of administration, flexibility, improved communications, and the fact that it does not move in real time as the RMB does, so you can't miss something just because you weren't on at the right time. Strengthening democracy in TWP is certainly a noble goal, but that's not what this would do.
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I think this is a great compromise. However, I feel that if we have a court of appeals, we might as well start with a court in the first place--it kind of defeats the purpose. Perhaps appeals could go to the entire HGA, to steal part of Cormac's idea? I think if every complaint goes to them they might get overwhelmed, but it makes more sense to me to let it take care of just the appeals. A court of appeals that has a six-month term and is only ever called into duty in an appeal sounds like a recipe for more judicial inactivity and stagnation to me.
I actually think that's a great idea, Resu! So we'll have the Executive take care of most minor infractions and punishments, while the Legislative will handle issues of constitutionality and appeals. Thanks for that idea.
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Thanks for the welcome, Eli!
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not dead
OHMYGOD ANOTHER LLAMA
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^This. Thanks, Clunt.
However, I can still see where you're coming from, Resu; you make some very good points. As such, I propose the following compromise:
-From here on out, the Prime Minister will appoint an Officer of Judicial Affairs, who shall hold a seat on the Executive Council. The Officer of Judicial Affairs will serve to uphold the law, administer punishment on the forums, and generally keep the order.
-However, the Officer of Judicial Affairs will not be the sole judicial authority in TWP. The Officer, combined with two other justices appointed by the HGA to a six-month term with no reelection, shall together make up TWP's Court of Appeals. The Court of Appeals will be charged with hearing appeals from those who have been punished by TWP's Officer of Judicial Affairs and can also rule on issues of constitutionality or discrepancies in the law to more formally interpret it.
Together, these two authorities will make certain that our judicial process is not complicated and convoluted, but still fair, balanced, and respectful to the rights of individuals in TWP.
- cluntobone and Reçueçn
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*munches on waffle*
*slaps Hariko with a salmon*
I don't know what you did to deserve that. I just know that somehow, for some reason, you deserve it.
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That would be more workable, as WA membership at least screens out multiple nations controlled by the same player. I'm still confused on how votes would be gathered though. If it's anything that requires them to go off-site, then they might as well just join this forum and participate in the assembly hosted on the forum, if they're interested. If we would be gathering their votes via the RMB, I think that would be really disruptive of the RMB.
I guess it would be best to hear from Llamas the exact logistics of how he envisions this working, otherwise we can't really decide whether it's practical.
Llama logistics time! We Llamas are good for logistics. We are bred pack animals, after all.
1. Voting will be done using polls, not the RMB.
2. The Lower House will not have to vote on every individual law or bill. This prevents the aforementioned scenario of excessive debating/argument on the RMB overwhelming the light, friendly banter. Instead, votes would be held under specific circumstances to give the people of TWP the ability to overrule the upper house. A good example to give you an idea of what I mean: Let's say that the Prime Minister proposes a bill before the HGA that is then shot down or takes far too long to go to vote. In this case, the forum government is holding back reform and progress. In order to force the HGA into action, the Prime Minister could propose to hand the bill over to the lower house instead and hold a public plebiscite on it, and if the bill receives support from a majority of the region, it'll pass, allowing for less bureaucracy, faster action, and a more democratic government in TWP.
3. Voting will be limited to WA residents who have been in the region and WA for at least 2 weeks, to make puppet-flooding from abroad nearly impossible. Exceptions would be made under certain circumstances, such as if a resident can prove that they are a member of a military (Which would not let them keep their WA here for 2 weeks at a time) or are WA-immobile for a good reason.
4. I'm considering simply making the upper house consist of everyone on the forums, to make things simpler and less prone to oligarchy; I'd prefer an elected upper house or an appointed one instead, however. The system I consider to be best would be one similar to TEP's Magisterium: Instead of being either appointed or elected, it consists of those who are active and dedicated on the forums; it's like our HGA, but with tougher requirements such as minimum post counts and a decent average post count per month.
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I hereby admit I acted as a bit of a prick in the past couple of days. I'm sorry, the elections ended up getting to me and I acted a bit hot-headed. After taking a day-long break from NS, I should be calm enough not to snap anything/one's neck. Taking a break every once in a while really is a good idea, Dark. ^.^
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I believe you are crossing a few lines.
Who is this Pierconium person that you speak of? Sounds like a cool dude.
Also, for fact's sake, Elegarth is not a member of the New Pacific Order.
1. I consider those lines to be stupid and drawn for the benefit of a few oligarchs, as opposed to the good of TWP.
2. Read the last line and stop pretending to be somebody you aren't.
3. Try checking your own forums. He's a member on them, and has previously stated that he is indeed a part of the NPO.
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The Holy Grand Assembly:
RECOGNIZING that Pierconium has, recently, decided to usurp the Holy Grand Assembly's influence and select its Head of Government without first consulting the people of the region,
UNDERSTANDING that Pierconium was never selected by the Holy Grand Assembly, but rather instead appointed by the Delegate,
FURTHERMORE NOTING that this violates the concept of separation between the forum and in-game authorities, which Pierconium has previously espoused but only now begins to oppose, due to his direct interest in assuring that the Pacific can control the West Pacific's forum government,
ALSO UNDERSTANDING that Pierconium's position as de facto head of the New Pacific Order and recognizing that this clearly creates a conflict of interest when he selects a fellow member of the New Pacific Order for the office of Prime Minister,
BELIEVING that these actions are repugnant and together justify the removal of Pierconium from the office in which he was placed,
HEREBY RECALLS Pierconium, also known as That Called Vlagh, from the office of Minister of Legislative RP and declares that it has lost confidence in him.
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Except that there's no law allowing you to do this. Your appointment is invalid.
I'm sick and tired of the fact that the NPO's Regent can just waltz in here and think he owns the place.
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I support this idea.
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"My dog ate my homework".
"I got hit by a bus." What the hell is your point? If you lie to get out of a moral responsibility, that's wrong. If you are incapable of performing a moral responsibility because of circumstances outside of your control, there is no reason not to allow the person in question to correct it when they are able.
new continent, new hope
in Information and Introduction Centre
Posted
Hi! I'm Llamas. Nice to meet you. Welcome to the West Pacific!
Now, a very brief lesson: This part of the forums is OOC, standing for Out of Character. This means that when you post, you don't post as ruler of your nation or the government, but instead act like yourself and talk like you normally do. IC, or in-character, is when you post or act as if you're the government of your nation or the ruler of it, and talk as if you actually were a ruler issuing a formal declaration or communication to other nations.