Consular

I'm inclined to agree with pd. The offsite forum is a great tool, but I think it should be used for just community stuff really. If the delegate wants an area here for him and the Guardians to plot, that's cool too. But why do we need an offsite government?

Deflection and redirection are something of a habit for you.

You seem to be on some ridiculous crusade to victimise yourself.

So you're resorting to using your position in another region, despite your own belief in duality, as a defence for a crime I never actually accused you of. What a strange conversation this is.

You love that hypocrite word. Me saying that your opinion of the role of the Delegate makes sense because of your role in TP =/= me claiming you are NPO influenced in the decisions you make in TWP. All it shows is that I don't care for duality, which I've been clear on. Your general opinions in each region cannot be compartmentalised. That does not mean you cannot /act/ without being influenced by ambitions from the other region. Which I've said elsewhere at this point. Your opinion is that the Delegate's opinion is all that matters. That makes sense because you are a Delegate (and an authoritarian one at that). Nice try though.

But you've also been clear that I've been part of it, when I've been explicitly avoiding placing any blame on you at all. As for how it looks, I'm just echoing the voices of those who have raised issue. I only really felt the need to do so because Elegarth was rather offhandedly dismissing them, and I felt they deserved a tad better than that. I don't think I was out of place to say there has been an increase in these complaints -- there have been an uncharacteristically large amount since the Voice or whatever it's called was dissolved. I suppose the difference between you and every other person in NS, is you are the leader of a regime that has been through some rather controversial events lately, specifically ones that involved deliberate and calculated attempts to remove the sovereignty of another GCR. Despite the friendship between our regions that probably makes some people a tad nervous. I'm not going to deal with that last line, since it's just an attempt to extrapolate this issue into something it's not.

So it is your opinion, that the opinion of the Delegate is the only one that matters. Given your own circumstances I suppose that view makes sense coming from you.

And which part of that post was taking issue with your association with the NPO? I said you and the Emperor are the same person. That is a simple fact. I didn't say you were acting for the NPO, I said it didn't matter if you were -- what mattered was whether others perceived that. I did not say I myself perceived that. This was a comment on duality. I said duality does not make you immune to accusations. I did not accuse you. I think your comment on alienation is just an attempt at redirection here, and not a very subtle one at that.

Why don't you quote to me where I've taken issue with your association with the NPO.

I think we have a vastly different conception of TWP's separation of in game delegacy from offsite community.

I can't speak for the others, but I'm not in any government positions anywhere, so I am free to alienate pretty much everyone. That said I think I said somewhere that I personally have nothing against you. I also don't think I've said anywhere that you're using your position here to achieve NPO aims. The dissolution of the offsite government (or attempt at such) was a questionable decision but was made by the Delegate, not you, and I've not said to the contrary. So I'm not sure what I personally have done to alienate you beyond disagreeing with duality.

Yeah that would be better.

Mhmm. I'm just going to reiterate that 'governor' is a horrible name then. Try something that seems more thematically appropriate for TWP maybe?

Two people overseeing one ministry seems horridly bureaucratic.

I'm just going to throw this out there: These 'governor' type positions (as an aside I despise that name) give Guardians oversight of offsite government departments? That is firstly not the traditional role of the Guardian system at all - they are more like a security council than a pacific-esque senate. Secondly this seems to be leaning towards URA's continuing stance that the offsite government should be subject to him.

There is quite a large difference in my opinion, between ignoring something but allowing it to operate on its own, and dismantling an institution entirely. (allowing... not that you have much of a choice. TWP can form an offsite government without your permission)

The difference here (which I thought was rather obvious) is that in that case you were being defensive against outsiders. Now you are being defensive against residents of TWP, who have a much greater right to be critical and deserve to be responded to constructively rather than dismissed. You are using claims of paranoia and insinuations that people are groundlessly fearmongering as a defence against the opinions of your own people. You therefore belittle those opinions, when you should be using them to understand the attitude of the region and adapt your own stance as a leader appropriately. I am an administrator in Albion and have been closely involved with the community for a number of years now. Whilst I do my absolute best to separate my ambitions and do the best for each region independently, I have never claimed any sort of nonsensical immunity to bias based on duality. Tancerlo and Consular are one and the same, and my opinions are not separate from region to region. One can be responsible and balance multiple interests, but to do so it is important to recognise the limitations of this and how conflicts can arise, as through awareness you can try to avoid them. Duality hides from the problem and is misleading to others. They are the same person, that is the end of that for all practical purposes. There is no such thing as 'subject to duality'. Duality is not a special status that gives protection or anything ridiculous like that. Most players don't even recognise it as a valid thing these days. Besides, as Westwind noted it's all about politics. Regardless of whether Vlagh acts independently of the NPO Emperor's ambitions or not, you are still allowing the person who is simultaneously the NPO Emperor to dissolve the civilian government in TWP. Just think about how that looks, and it might explain the surge in anti-NPO sentiment that Elegarth is trying so desperately to dismiss. You're being a bit obtuse. Calling people's opinions stupid is very close to calling them themselves stupid and most will take it this way. Your words should always be judged by how others will receive them, not by how you might have subjectively meant them. You certainly have the right to play that way and I don't begrudge you it. But people get to have opinions on that style of playing too, and said style very much does make you just as vulnerable to accusations of influence, just as vulnerable (in my opinion more so) than players who are the same everywhere. The people of TWP do not have to shut up about anything.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any agenda against Ivan or anything. I just personally think duality is not possible and does not survive the toughest of interactions. People aren't capable of completely compartmentalizing their thoughts, opinions, and ambitions. It also isn't childish to ask questions Elegarth. Calling dissenters childish is a pretty dismissive way of dealing with issues.

"different" characters indeed.

Of course, it is entirely up to you whether you consider duality to be a valid thing or utter nonsense.

Well this is unfortunate, but RL dictates. Fair winds to you Reçueçn.

oh god

We could engage in some lovely corporate takeovers too.

I am moderately confused as to what is happening.

wb pd