Real Democracy for All - A Plan for the West Pacific's Government

[Llamas]

Here you go. 

 

This proposal establishes a fully democratic government for the West Pacific, using in-game polls to facilitate democratic participation for the whole region while maintaining efficiency and preventing a TSP-like buildup of bureaucracy and hostility. This is the first proposal so far which will allow all of the West Pacific - Not merely a small oligarchy - To have real power and influence within the region.

 

Thanks to PunkDaddy for early formulation of the idea and support.

[Darkesia]

Have not had time to read, but noticed that your real name (first name and initial) is visible in this document.  If you don't care, it's no biggie.  Just thought I would mention it.

Might work better if you put it in a post here, so people don't have to go to another format to read.  Then have to copy and paste to post suggestions here.

[Elegarth]

This is the first proposal so far which will allow all of the West Pacific - Not merely a small oligarchy - To have real power and influence within the region.

This is inaccurate. Your proposal says:

The Legislative Assembly will consist of all members of the World Assembly residing within the region, subject to further reasonable restrictions imposed by the Prime Minister for purposes of regional security, who will each be granted an equal vote in all matters of legislation.

And by this simple fact, you are basically FORCING people to move their WA here to become citizens of the region. While your second part talks about the Prime Minister being able to confer "honorary membership", him being able to do so is the same as him being able NOT to do so, and hence it is NOT accurate to say what you said.

[That Called the Vlagh]

If the proposal is not present on this forum then it will not be considered.

[Llamas]

And by this simple fact, you are basically FORCING people to move their WA here to become citizens of the region. While your second part talks about the Prime Minister being able to confer "honorary membership", him being able to do so is the same as him being able NOT to do so, and hence it is NOT accurate to say what you said.

"The Prime Minister may choose to grant a nation honorary membership in order to confer voting rights upon a nation whose WA does not reside within the West Pacific."

Remember to read all the way through next time.

[Elegarth]

And by this simple fact, you are basically FORCING people to move their WA here to become citizens of the region. While your second part talks about the Prime Minister being able to confer "honorary membership", him being able to do so is the same as him being able NOT to do so, and hence it is NOT accurate to say what you said.

Remember to read all the way through next time.

Guess who didn't, little Llamas?

[That Called the Vlagh]

If the proposal is not present on this forum then it will not be considered.

Just in case you missed this.  Since this is about the forum government, linking to another site in order to facilitate discussion of your proposal is unacceptable.

[Elegarth]

Remember to read all the way through next time.

By the way, this is the third or fourth time you reply to your fellow citizens in disrespectful condescending manner. I thought you had understood PD's comment yet you didn't. Dark also asked you to stop the "eye-rolling". If you don't the capacity to debate back the points of your proposals that are weak or flick, then you either concede the point, or retract them. Else, debate them. Your condescending eye-rolling disrespectful manners are unbecoming, tiresome and are getting on the nervers of many people. People IS READING your comments and not agreeing with them. Deal with it.

And do READ the arguments that are presented to you next time.

[Llamas]

By the way, this is the third or fourth time you reply to your fellow citizens in disrespectful condescending manner. I thought you had understood PD's comment yet you didn't. Dark also asked you to stop the "eye-rolling". If you don't the capacity to debate back the points of your proposals that are weak or flick, then you either concede the point, or retract them. Else, debate them. Your condescending eye-rolling disrespectful manners are unbecoming, tiresome and are getting on the nervers of many people. People IS READING your comments and not agreeing with them. Deal with it.

And do READ the arguments that are presented to you next time.

Elegarth, what PD asked us to stop doing is turning every single thread into an argument between us. You're launching into various attacks on me as a person rather than trying to argue as to whether my constitution is good. Please stop this now.

 

Also, as to the point that he can just refuse to grant honorary membership: That's pretty much the same way as it is right now. The Speaker/Prime Minister checks applications and either accepts or rejects them.

 

 

Just in case you missed this.  Since this is about the forum government, linking to another site in order to facilitate discussion of your proposal is unacceptable.

Noted, Vlagh, I'll post it here in a bit.

[That Called the Vlagh]

Thank you.

[Llamas]

The West Pacific Constitution Act

 

1. The Legislative Assembly is hereby established as the sole legislative body in the West Pacific.

   1. The Legislative Assembly will consist of all members of the World Assembly residing within the region, subject to further reasonable restrictions imposed by the Prime Minister for purposes of regional security, who will each be granted an equal vote in all matters of legislation.

   2. The Prime Minister may choose to grant a nation honorary membership in order to confer voting rights upon a nation whose WA does not reside within the West Pacific.

   3. The Legislative Assembly shall operate using in-game polls to make the process of voting and participating simpler and easier with the permission of the Delegate. Should the Delegate be unable to create a poll for a particular vote within five days of a proposal being submitted, the Legislative Assembly shall instead hold a vote on the regional forums.

   4. A law shall be moved to vote if it receives explicit statements of support from five members of the region on the forums, or if it is proposed by the Executive Council as a whole.

 

2. The Executive Council of the West Pacific is hereby established and will be tasked with carrying out all commands and laws of the regional legislature.

   1. The Executive Council shall consist of the Prime Minister and all Officers appointed by the Prime Minister to assist in performing his duties.

   2. The Delegate shall be considered a non-member observer on the Executive Council and have access to all of its communications, but shall not be considered a full member of the body.

   3. All full members of the Executive Council will respond to the Prime Minister, and will be held responsible before them for their actions and omissions in the execution of their duties.

   4. Should any full member of the Executive Council fail to perform their duties as laid out in the law, the Delegate may call for a constructive vote of no confidence to remove the incumbent and replace them. In order to succeed, over three-fifths of all votes cast must be in favor of the motion. A full member of the legislature who is appointed in such a manner may not be removed from office until the next General Elections have ended.

   5. Any member of the Executive Council may appoint deputies to assist them in carrying out their duties.

   6. The Executive Council as a whole shall possess the power of legislative initiative, and may choose to propose a bill before the Legislative Assembly to be either approved or rejected by majority vote.

 

3. The following Offices are hereby established as part of the Executive Council.

   1. The Prime Minister will be Head of Government in the West Pacific as well as Head of the Executive Council, acting to coordinate its activities and set its agenda.

   2. The Officer of Foreign Affairs will, in consultation with the Prime Minister, be responsible for coordinating diplomatic interaction with other regions and nations, and will also be responsible for handling World Assembly Affairs.

   3. The Officer of Judicial Affairs will be responsible for maintaining order within the West Pacific, especially on its forums, by issuing punishment for minor crimes and judgement when guilt or innocence is clearly evident.

   4. The Officer of Community Affairs will be responsible for facilitating community affairs, including but not necessarily limited to integration, culture, and role play.

   5. The Officer of Home Affairs will be responsible for recruiting recently-founded nations within TWP so that they will join the forums and remain in the region, increasing the number of nations in the region who are both in the World Assembly and endorsing the Delegate to assist domestic security, and educate the people of the region IRC so that they may become active and productive citizens of the West Pacific.

 

4. The Judiciary will be the third branch of the West Pacific’s government, and will consist of the Regional Court.

   1. The Regional Court will be made up of three members: Two Justices of the Peace and the Minister of Judicial Affairs.

   2. Justices of the Peace will be nominated by the Delegate and then either approved or rejected by the Legislative Assembly.

   3. Should a Justice of the Peace fail to perform their duties as laid out in the law, the Delegate may call for a constructive vote of no confidence to remove the incumbent and replace him with another candidate. In order to succeed, over three-fifths of all votes cast must be in favor of the motion. A full member of the legislature who is appointed in such a manner may not be removed from office until the next General Elections have ended.

   4. The Regional Court will handle appeals from those who have been punished by the Minister of Judicial Affairs and grant all accused a fair trial upon agreeing to hear their appeal.

   5. The Regional Court is granted the authority to interpret laws of the region.

   6. Should any law passed by the Legislative Assembly contradict the Constitution without explicitly modifying it, the offending law will be struck down.

   7. No member of the Regional Court apart from the Minister of Judicial Affairs may also be a member of the Executive Council.

5. General elections will be held every three months to select a Prime Minister.

   1. General elections will begin on the first of every March, June, September, and December.

   2. Elections will consist of a three-day nomination and campaigning period in which any member or honorary member of the Legislative Assembly may declare their candidacy, followed by a five-day vote in which every member or honorary member of the Legislative Assembly will receive a single vote.

   3. Should no candidate receive a majority of votes cast in the election, a runoff shall be held between the top two candidates.

   4. Should the office of Prime Minister become suddenly vacant, the Delegate will appoint an Acting Prime Minister to serve for the duration of snap elections.

[Llamas]

Thank you.

Glad to help!

[Elegarth]

Also, as to the point that he can just refuse to grant honorary membership: That's pretty much the same way as it is right now. The Speaker/Prime Minister checks applications and either accepts or rejects them.

It is not. The only thing the Speaker checks is the existence of a TWP nation. This is conceptually TOTALLY different that establishing than WA members have automatic citizenship and non WA member MAY (or MAY NOT, which you are conveniently ignoring here) be granted a special HONORARY citizenship.

When you deal with creation of legal documents, the fine print is the most important part, as the devil is in the details, which you are purposely ignoring to try to shrug off a very honest and sincere critic of your proposal.

[Llamas]

It is not. The only thing the Speaker checks is the existence of a TWP nation. This is conceptually TOTALLY different that establishing than WA members have automatic citizenship and non WA member MAY (or MAY NOT, which you are conveniently ignoring here) be granted a special HONORARY citizenship.

When you deal with creation of legal documents, the fine print is the most important part, as the devil is in the details, which you are purposely ignoring to try to shrug off a very honest and sincere critic of your proposal.

Elegarth, maybe you should try calming down just a bit? PD just talked about this. Take a few steps back from the keyboard and look at something cute and fluffy. (Maybe a kitten; I remember back in TSP, I used to jump into random threads where people were bickering about some minor point and I'd post pics of fluffy kitties to try to get everybody to calm down and realize it's a game.)

 

After that, I'll gladly talk to you about the proposal, but I just think you should try to blow off a bit of steam first.

 

 Stop.  Baiting.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Darkesia
BAITING!!!

[Elegarth]

Elegarth, maybe you should try calming down just a bit? PD just talked about this. Take a few steps back from the keyboard and look at something cute and fluffy. (Maybe a kitten; I remember back in TSP, I used to jump into random threads where people were bickering about some minor point and I'd post pics of fluffy kitties to try to get everybody to calm down and realize it's a game.)

 

After that, I'll gladly talk to you about the proposal, but I just think you should try to blow off a bit of steam first.

I'm going to assume that you are unable to debate the concerns I've raised. I'm pretty calm and raised the two most obvious defects of your proposal and you just keep your condescending teenager attitude. Fine by me.

I should point out the rest:

1) Your executive council proposal is stiff and not flexible, is also a reflect of the one we previously approved when the activity was killed due to the Holidays and we were willing to accept anythying we could to have some action. So, by all means, your "reformation" is just more of the same in regards to an executive staff.

2) Your election process could easily take 13 days at least, should any delegate don't feel like posting the poll / is unable to do so. This does not address the concerns that originally caused the previous installment of our system to stall, and this is WITHOUT counting in any possible ties or run offs votes, which could easily, as per your proposal, extend to 26 days... Bureaucratic mess comes to my mind...

3) You let awful holes in the overall document:

a) there is no explanation of the difference tasks between the Minister of Justice and the Court, to which the Minister of Justice belongs to and according to your text, will be able to review the appeals made to his own work...

B ) no indication is made of what should happen if a Prime Minister resigns and the remaining officers in the line do not wish to uphold the position, your elections will ONLY be held on 4 specific times of the year... and hence the will of the people will have to wait all that long to select again? doesn't seems too democratic...

c) point 4-7 contradicts point 3-3 unless there is yet ANOTHER judicial system over the other

REGARDING YOUR BOLDED PART:

Please let me know if you will be mature enough to stop your condescending ad hominen attacks (I don't need to link), and actually debate the glaring holes of your proposal? I'm making very single arguments here, and you are just hiding behind ridiculous emoti-faces and a clear and weak attempt to weasel out of this...

[Llamas]

I'm going to assume that you are unable to debate the concerns I've raised. I'm pretty calm and raised the two most obvious defects of your proposal and you just keep your condescending teenager attitude. Fine by me.

*sigh* pile the ad hominems on all you like, then. I'm honestly a bit disappointed; I expected more from our Prime Minister. Just a bit of an apology. I publicly gave my own for my behavior earlier, yet it seems that some people just won't learn from their mistakes...

 

Also, maybe better a condescending teenager than a stick in the mud. Though I hope to be neither, and I'd like Dark to give me a good kick in the arse if I start veering into the first. Thanks.

 

I'll be on the actually good points he made briefly, I'm in the process of typing out a response.

[Llamas]

1) Your executive council proposal is stiff and not flexible, is also a reflect of the one we previously approved when the activity was killed due to the Holidays and we were willing to accept anythying we could to have some action. So, by all means, your "reformation" is just more of the same in regards to an executive staff.

1. I didn't even try paint this as a reform. When it was first passed under the Executive Council Act a few weeks ago, it was a reform.

2. I see literally no way it's inflexible; it allows the Prime Minister to easily and quickly appoint a cabinet.

3. If you would like to disagree with some parts of it, please go ahead. I'm all ears. I just need specifics so that I can address them and try to look trough them. I don't know everything, obviously, and I like receiving advice; I just need to hear what you actually think is wrong so that I can take it into account.

 

2) Your election process could easily take 13 days at least, should any delegate don't feel like posting the poll / is unable to do so. This does not address the concerns that originally caused the previous installment of our system to stall, and this is WITHOUT counting in any possible ties or run offs votes, which could easily, as per your proposal, extend to 26 days... Bureaucratic mess comes to my mind...

That's a legitimate concern; the election process could drag on longer than necessary. However, I'd like to make a few notes:

1. You're assuming a worst-case scenario. While obviously, this would suck, it's also very unlikely. After all, the Delegate will almost certainly be able to put up a poll at the very least for elections; Darkesia will know about those months in advance, and she could likely be on long enough to put it up after

2. Our previous system actually stalled because we had too few voters, allowing for ties to easily occur. This remedies that by increasing the number of voters drastically, which will make ties very unlikely.

3. 13 days is less than 2 weeks. It's really not that long. I would gladly wait that long if it allows us to have a good Prime Minister.

I'm still open to specific ideas you have to cut back on the time it would take to carry out the whole elections process or edits you would make, though; this is a first draft, and I want to hear as much constructive criticism as I can get. Just try to keep it constructive, OK, Elegarth?

 

a) there is no explanation of the difference tasks between the Minister of Justice and the Court, to which the Minister of Justice belongs to and according to your text, will be able to review the appeals made to his own work...

I may have been vague as to the difference between the two. Essentially, what is meant to be the case is that the Minister of Justice handles most of the punishment and minor infractions; after all, in NS, it's really easy to check, "Did person A spam? Yes, he did, so now he's banned from the forums." There's not really a question in most cases as to whether the accused is guilty or innocent. The Court is meant to intervene in those few cases when there actually is a question, as well as to interpret the law when it's ambiguous. The Officer of Judicial Affairs would serve as a link between the Executive and the Judiciary as well, improving communication between them.

 

The reason why the Officer of Judicial Affairs is on the Court is because the alternative is creating an entirely separate position just to be head of the Court, and I feel like that would honestly be a waste of talent if we need 2 people in 2 different positions that could just as easily be handled as one.

 

B ) no indication is made of what should happen if a Prime Minister resigns and the remaining officers in the line do not wish to uphold the position

The chances that literally everybody in the line of succession will refuse to be Prime Minister are quite low. (The chances that even a single person in the line of succession will refuse to take the most powerful position in the region are pretty low, TBH; most would jump at the opportunity. ) Still, however, that's a possibility; as such, I'll revise it to read that they will only serve as Acting Prime Minister while snap elections are being held to fill the vacancy. Thanks for pointing that out, this is a draft after all.

 

your elections will ONLY be held on 4 specific times of the year... and hence the will of the people will have to wait all that long to select again? doesn't seems too democratic...

That's every three months (Even if you're not including votes of no confidence as well) which is quite normal for an NS democracy. When Cormac proposed making terms 2 months earlier, you were part of the group who said that was too short, though, so I don't really even get what length you're trying to recommend. :/

 

c) point 4-7 contradicts point 3-3 unless there is yet ANOTHER judicial system over the other

Sorry, thanks for catching that. I missed it.  Fixed.

 

REGARDING YOUR BOLDED PART:

Please let me know if you will be mature enough to stop your condescending ad hominen attacks (I don't need to link), and actually debate the glaring holes of your proposal? I'm making very single arguments here, and you are just hiding behind ridiculous emoti-faces and a clear and weak attempt to weasel out of this...

I really don't like the attitude our Prime Minister is taking here. Seriously, LOOK AT IT! IT'S SO FLUFFY!

[Hariko]

LOOK AT IT! IT'S SO FLUFFY!

Is this supposed to be some sort of distraction from the conversation or something? Please, save the kittens and gifs and emoticons everywhere for the Clubhouse. We need to get this done within a reasonable window of time. We haven't been able to resolve this whole Prime Minister issue for the last two or three weeks. This is one of those times to be serious.

[Eli]

what happens if the Delegate banjects the Prime Minister?

 

 

Is it then time to get a new Prime Minister?

[The Church of Satan]

I must admit, I find your proposal less appealing than Cormac's. I support the concept that you're going for, but I feel your proposal to be somewhat lacking. Combining yours and Cormac's proposal I think would pretty good.

[Llamas]

Is this supposed to be some sort of distraction from the conversation or something? Please, save the kittens and gifs and emoticons everywhere for the Clubhouse. We need to get this done within a reasonable window of time. We haven't been able to resolve this whole Prime Minister issue for the last two or three weeks. This is one of those times to be serious.

Hariko, we finished the Prime Minister elections a week ago. This is something entirely different. :/

I'd honestly rather not post fluffy kittens. I'm just trying to get Elegarth to calm down with that, but everything else I've said has been serious because this is, in all actuality, a serious topic. But we need to be calm enough to talk about this in a reasonable way rather than just pointlessly attack each other and bicker about every little point.

Anywho, I'll stop with the kittens. They don't seem to be working, honestly.

I must admit, I find your proposal less appealing than Cormac's. I support the concept that you're going for, but I feel your proposal to be somewhat lacking. Combining yours and Cormac's proposal I think would pretty good.

Cormac has a full proposal up? Hadn't noticed, I thought he'd just given a very rough outline. Can I get a link?

what happens if the Delegate banjects the Prime Minister?

Is it then time to get a new Prime Minister?

The Constitution specifically notes that the Prime Minister must be a member of the Legislative Assembly, which requires that you have a WA in the region or be an honorary member, so yes.

[A fish in the sea]

Anywho, I'll stop with the kittens. They don't seem to be working, honestly.

Besides, if someone wanted to download that cat image, I can tell by just eyeballing it that it is easily over 2 MB.

[Elegarth]

Snip

I'll gladly reply to your comments tomorroW morning, with additions or details or specifics as requested

[Llamas]

Nice, Elegarth! Glad to see that you seem at least a bit calmer now, and I hope to have a better conversation next time around without the necessity for fluffy kittens or pointless ad hominems.

[URAP]

I like parts of this.

I'm going to go into detail later, don't worry.