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Darkesia

New Theme Chatter

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Howdy!

I want to start by saying both thank you and f--- you to Ark, Kawaii and OT for making this a hard choice. I like all three options and will be weighing each carefully in the next couple of days.

But why the theme change at all? Why not stick with tradition? Well, what even is traditional for us? As Westy mentioned above, we have taken plenty of different directions on how we wish to theme our government. We started out as one of the key pillars of the ADN, and proudly were one of the most effective forces in defenderdom, never mind in-game. We experimented with different themes since then, be it a committee-structure when Eli couped that one time to the various themes Westy listed above. We have had a great past couple of years and I don't think anyone wants to tarnish that legacy. Rather, updates and new priorities, such as the theme, peerage, point system, and Ministry of Education, can be made to help make us a better region.

What doesn't change are our core values. Delegate supremacy, meritocracy and community do not change. What matters most is that we have a fun time here and allow newer folks the chance to feel welcome and able to learn from those of us who should honestly be NS dead by now. There is a lot of work to be done on both sides, myself included.

I like the idea of a new theme. Right now as I mentioned above I'm not sure which way I'll vote, but I like having options. Our Delegate has made it clear that not all presented aspects will be included in the final theme design, which is good because we can talk about what is good about the general idea and what might need to be nixed. 

I echo the concerns raised about changing the titles of Delegate and Guardian. I certainly don't mind there to be a title made for them and other ranks, but I probably will still use Guardian as my job title :P We don't need to go hardcore on the titles, but it is nice to have our own regional way of describing who we are. What we get with that is more of a cultural identity. I'm not necessarily saying that we'd get up to such status with a theme change, but I preferred the communist-themed Pacific over the bunny-themed Pacific.

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Well, finally I have gone through the plethora of offerings from both threads.

My first thought is that as a region we need to do something to get new players actually involved rather than hovering around the edges before fluttering off to do their own thing. 

I have to say, however, that I am not a keen fan of any of the themes presented and agree with Fujai that a great option would be to extend the Pirate theme which does not clash with TWP's past history of being a non-RL themed region.  I have an abhorrence of lengthy titles for those in Ministries or positions of authority which smack of NGO titles, and believe we should keep titles short and sweet. 

Second, and I have a personal leaning towards Badger's thoughts of that... less is more... for the changes but would be perfectly happy for changes that the younger, and therefore the future senior players of TWP, would like to see.

P.S.  Suggest we combine this thread with A New Theme for The West Pacific

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As much as I like the pirate theme for TWPAF, I don't like it for the region as a whole. It makes us seem like a military organization and we're more than that. I do love the dragons. Dragon theme for TWP and dragoon for TWPAF? Maybe something along those lines? Names might be difficult to come up with that made any sense to outsiders, though. While there is still more support than not for the themes that were already presented, maybe we need a fourth option. We'll think about that.

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23 hours ago, Dalimbar said:

We started out as one of the key pillars of the ADN, and proudly were one of the most effective forces in defenderdom, never mind in-game.

*nods, rocks, rambles*  During The Crimson Order operations, one of the possible paths we prepared was the restoration of ADN. I owned the domain name (PH gave it to me), created a new forum. We controlled two of the three largest regional former ADN militaries (TNP/Equilism) and I had an insider in Nasicournia (ADN foudning region) ready to declare alliance with us if I triggered that option. TWP had both defender and raider armies, and the TWP Minister of the defender army was a former Equilism Military Minister, so I expect TWP would have participated in some way. Those four regions were the four pillars of ADN.

I could have been the Defender hero rather than villian. (Of course, all that had to be kept secret from the others we were working with such as Gatesville, The Last Kingdom, LKE....)

I had three or four very different options mapped out and prepared. If TNP Admin Grosse /Flem hadn't refused to change the North Pacific Army forum name ("OMG West is going to turn us raider because he's changing the name!" *rollseyes*)- thus blocking me and violating the TNP constitution, Crimson Order would have turned out entirely differently. And Grosse and Flem would have been happy about the results. Instead they assumed my intentions incorrectly. Screwed themselves over based on their own metal projections. (Yes, yes....I encouraged those perceptions of course) TNP should stop calling me a rogue delegate. I was duly elected and It was TNP forum admin that violated the constitution, giving me no choice but to abandon the forum. I was duly elected and the constitution gave me full authority. Ah well.

These days, TNP Admin Elu, who stole the TNP Delegacy from me, was recently asking for my help with TNP's forum move from Tapatalk. I'll never get credit though (I think it's ironic. Demonize me and ask for me help. Wasn't the first time.)

Of course, there was the time when The Pacific asked for my help, and I never got credit for that either. I think The Pacific should hire me as Emperor and Delegate, I have a good resume for the job.

23 hours ago, Dalimbar said:

those of us who should honestly be NS dead by now.

*chuckles*  I've been planning my NS death for five years. It's very close now. Unless The Pacific wants to hire me as Delegate.  I won't hold my breath.

42 minutes ago, Overthinkers said:

Not to mention that the other thread is citizens-only.

Thank you! 

I have the ability to post in the Hall, but I don't because I'm not a citizen. Besides, I can ramble a bit off topic here, as thread jacking is traditional in TWP. :P

 

24 minutes ago, Big Bad Badger said:

I really like the idea of expanding upon the pirate theme.

Perhaps combined with the dragon from Ark's flag idea.

"Dragons coming out of the sea,
Shimmering silver head of wisdom looking at me.
He brings down the fire from the skies,
You can tell he's doing well by the look in human eyes.
Better not compromise.
It won't be easy."

 

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1 hour ago, Saint Mark said:

As much as I like the pirate theme for TWPAF, I don't like it for the region as a whole. It makes us seem like a military organization and we're more than that

For pirates, I was thinking more of a Pirates of the Caribbean style, nevermind that it's wildly historically inaccurate. The delegate could have the position of Pirate King/Queen/what have you, the guardians being their immediate officers, and the ministers being captains of their respective ministries. I agree that we don't want to go for a militaristic feel, but a more whimsical one. That being said, I do feel like the theme options are a bit too regimented, though well put together, in their current states.

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There is an idea here somewhere.  I can feel it starting to come together.  I love the way TWP can just start rambling on and suddenly we all shout, "Yes!" as the perfect idea makes itself known.  We're almost there.

I'm seeing:

Fun, strong but not militaristic (except the military, of course), elements of fantasy prevalent, titles that are practical and descriptive, keep the current colors.

Also seeing...   Pirates, yes!  Pirates, no!  Hmmm...  Maybe this translates to:  We want to retain the idea of being a bunch of rogue personalities gathered together and loyal to one another.  It's just a guess on my part.  But I know we are getting close.  Keep arguing it out!  

This group never ceases to make me proud.

 

 

 

 

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I am not afraid of change.  I want the change to be compelled by a good reason. I don't feel like a good reason has been presented.  A theme change alone will not spur lasting activity.  There has been no discussion of how the individual themes will be utilized to do things.  We've had a Guardian say that they won't use the titles.  So what will be used? 

One theme is a flag only.  And while it is better than anything I can make, it doesn't really feel like the flag of a feeder.  It has a frenetic look with an 80's feel.  Not sure that it all goes together.  The russian and chinese themes have different iconology that don't really feel like the region.  

I'm nervous that if we adapt the Chinese or Japanese themes that we will take over the mantle of the Weeb Pacific.  The mess that created in TEP was a massive cleanup.

I truly like the idea of a non-RL country theme.  I can understand if some people don't like or are tired of the pirate thing.  But to adapt a RL culture is going to have a change on TWP.  It would be abhorrent to make it something that wasn't TWP. 

Y'all ministers and guardians did a ton of work.  Perhaps allowing the citizenry to work on ideas and make presentations would be good idea?  Or at least to flesh out some ideas.  Something as important as a theme change shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

 

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The reason is that things are getting stale in the region. Your changes were terrific, but that was about two years ago.

TWP is, in my opinion, the best region in NS, but we are not retaining the new players and we are having problems with TWPAF recruiting as well.

A new theme ... among other things ... is our attempt to spur interest and reverse the course before it slides too far.

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Just a note:  What ever you decide, Halo.   ~for the love of all that is holy, I'm begging you; do not go with anime or kpop or any of that weeb stuff.  I can happily adjust to almost anything but that.  I can't bear the discord channels that have been consumed by it.~ 

But in reality, you are the Delegate.  It's your choice.  This sort of seeps into the other area of your changes.  (The desire to add a Senate level to the off-site government structure)

If you are waiting for complete consensus on something, it will never happen.  So, if you think the peanut gallery is being difficult now, just wait until you try to tie legislation to arguments from two separate bodies full of strong, intelligent opinionated players.  I am not passing judgement of right or wrong.  I'm just reminding us all of the difference between expectations and reality.

 

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Thanks, Dark.

Yes, I re-worked the Manners changes from what I originally had to make it quite clear that the Hall of Peers is advisory only. I do not want a situation like what happened in the past.

... and we will not go with anything weeb or anime, even if Japan is selected. That's all too much for me too!  ;)

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54 minutes ago, Big Bad Badger said:

I'm nervous that if we adapt the Chinese or Japanese themes that we will take over the mantle of the Weeb Pacific.  The mess that created in TEP was a massive cleanup.

1

Let me state for the record that TWP will never  become anything even close to TEP. Let me also say that the idea that if TWP adopts a Japanese theme, that does not and should not ever be seen as a bad thing that will lead to an influx of memers, disrespectful types of any kind, or any kind of individual that we wouldn't normally banject on the reg. I think too many people have let the bad "weeaboo" kids ruin the image and idea of a Japanese theme, but it's important to remember that there's more to Japan than Anime and J-Pop, just as China isn't all about kung fu and Mauism. :^)

I had an idea to adopt a fun and promising environment that reflected Japan's Bubble Economy of the 80's, complete with the aesthetics as you can see by my flag. (And I'm aware that's not exactly "imperial Japan but it's what I was feeling so I went with it lol.) To give some background on the general culture of the Bubble Era, it was a time in Japan when its economy was at its peak and commercial success was high for many people. There are a certain feel and mood that's strongly present in many media depicting 80's Japan, that paints a picture of the good old days. It wasn't too far off from what the 80's was like here in the US.

I wanted to try and take the key aspects that made Bubble Era special and incorporate them into a theme, allowing us to leave a good first impression with those who come to our region. I wouldn't have sold them short either. I would do anything to give them something reminiscent of the high spirits and energy that was everpresent in 80's Japan. This coupled with a nice retro look would pull in many people. Especially as it relates to Japan. A lot more people now than ever are falling in love with Late 20th Century Japanese culture, it's been growing in popularity for over the last decade, and doesn't show any sign of stopping; nostalgia is very easy to market.

Now with all that being said, TWP wouldn't be "80's Japan," it would be TWP but with the characteristics and overall environment present in 80's Japan. I agree with keeping our coastal beach idea, but adding in a more fun, active, and promising vibe to it along with retro imagery.

Anyway, that's my two-cents as it relates to my theme. I know the other two are quite different. But now I've spilled my beans and explained my thought process with my theme a bit, hopefully, it may be to more people's liking.

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11 hours ago, Fujai said:

nevermind that it's wildly historically inaccurate

That would be a good thing, I'd think. ;)

2 hours ago, Darkesia said:

Also seeing...   Pirates, yes!  Pirates, no!  Hmmm...  Maybe this translates to:  We want to retain the idea of being a bunch of rogue personalities gathered together and loyal to one another.

*chuckles* Bunch of rogues......The Syndicate (oh wait, a region already did that), The Western Cartel. The Rogue Gallery of The West Pacific....

I don't know if anyone knew this, but once upon a time I was looking to establish a Rogue Pirate military, sailing across all the Pacifics, unaffiliated with any of them. There were two or three missions these unknown Pirates engaged in across The Pacifics, but never really got fully off the ground.  I smiled when TWPAF went Pirate, I was proud of you all. :)

2 hours ago, Darkesia said:

But in reality, you are the Delegate.  It's your choice. 

Exactly.  Of course, if The Delegate wishes to pursue a process/debate/choice beyond that.......that's The Delegate's choice too. On the other hand, if....

2 hours ago, Darkesia said:

...do not go with anime or kpop or any of that weeb stuff. 

And no pink with purple polka dots WFE. I see a region that does that and I immediate click elsewhere. Have some respect for your viewer/readers and be easy on the eyes. 

2 hours ago, Darkesia said:

just wait until you try to tie legislation to arguments from two separate bodies full of strong, intelligent opinionated players.

Yup. You'll be sorry. You'll be frustrated. NS isn't worth the high blood pressure.

3 hours ago, Big Bad Badger said:

I want the change to be compelled by a good reason. I don't feel like a good reason has been presented. 

I tend agree with this. I'm still waiting for a presentation of sufficient cause for change, and where that change might apply, how it will be applied......

Although, had the Delegate simply announced "here is our new Theme!" I'd accept the Delegate wanting  a change as reason enough. (That doesn't mean I'd agree with or like the change)

 

2 hours ago, Saint Mark said:

The reason is that things are getting stale in the region.

I can't fully address this, I'm not on Discord so I don't know what the real activity level is here. Also, the period of the Holidays into February is always slow. The ebb and flow of NS. 

A theme change isn't sufficient to drive activity to combat staleness. Action is what drives change, and that action comes from the region's Leaders, not the theme.  

Partially why Pirates is worth considering.....the military is active, the military is Pirate.  I don't see that theme being promulgated on the RMB or via mass TG, so it feels detached from the region as a whole.  Integrating Pirate into the theme would meld the two together better in player's minds. (Psychology), tying the civilian and the military into a whole.  

Whenever the civilian government is closely tied to the military and military/diplomatic activities, it drives interest and activity. When a civilian government begins to ignore it's military, it will progressively go inactive. Unless is has another strong area (such as RP) to supplant the military activity.

 

2 hours ago, Big Bad Badger said:

It has to do with tangible govt activity, engaging nations, and helping nations find purpose in the region.

There does seem to be less interaction with the region ingame these days. And obviously little interaction on the forum.  I don't do Discord, so I have no idea there. I feel like Non-Discord players have been locked out of activity by the regional Oligarchies.

1 hour ago, Saint Mark said:

I do not want a situation like what happened in the past.

Never ever EVER EVER allow a higher legislative body. NEVER. 

 

1 hour ago, Saint Mark said:

make it quite clear that the Hall of Peers is advisory only

If it has no power, no one will participate - there will be nothing to do.  If it has too much power, I guarantee you will eventually have a conflict with the Delegate.  This is where the balancing act of TWP comes into play.

2 hours ago, Saint Mark said:

even if Japan is selected.

Let's not go to RL national themes at all. The Rising Sun of the TWP flag used to bother me all by itself as it was too suggestive of WWII Japan. I'm old, grew up with those veterans, knew WWI vets. My grandfathers were both considered National Security assets, my daughter's maternal great grandfather was a  private American citizen, captured as a POW by the Japanese and he died in malnourished captivity, his body never recovered.

(I knew a US Civil War vet - at his 100th birthday he said of his imprisonment as a POW that the prisoners "ate as well as the guards. All we had to eat was grasshoppers.")

Although no NS theme insulted me more than The NPO's Soviet theme. Made me sick to my stomach after growing up at nuclear ground zero for the Cold War. Let's not promote RL murderous regimes (such as Imperial Japan, Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany.....). 

2 hours ago, Kawaii said:

the 80's

I lived through that time, the 80's sucked. :P

Don't do 70's Japan, back then Japan was known for flimsy cheap throw away products. (Like China is known for now). *chuckles*

I like your flag design best of the choices, but I don't like it's color scheme.

I'd prefer to keep our flag, or alter it slightly, than a wholesale change.  I won't like it, whatever it is, if the theme design abandons our 15 year flag.

 

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I have a crazy idea.  *watches everyone roll their eyes*

Flags:

I love the dragon flag where the dragon is clinging to the back of the sun for the Regional WFE flag.  I have always been partial to dragons and love them in all their literary and film adaptations.  I also really like the stamp-like, trendy flag that was Kawaii's, I think.  I like it because it looks like a stamp.  If we added a relief of words (or a dragon?) in the top part of the sun, it could easily be used as an FA seal for treaties and dispatches.  I dislike the first group of flags because they remind me too much of the Kaiser and WWI sensibilities.   However, I have always wanted to rp-live in Imperial Russia.  Which brings me to ...

Titles:

I dislike all of them and their forms of address.  But not the idea of titles and some designations.  I think we (the region) can do better if we drink some wine and argue about it one evening.   I would like to ask that the Heir apparent designation be removed from the lists for a number of reasons we can argue about another time.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Westwind said:

I lived through that time, the 80's sucked. :P

Don't do 70's Japan, back then Japan was known for flimsy cheap throw away products. (Like China is known for now). *chuckles*

I like your flag design best of the choices, but I don't like it's color scheme.

I'd prefer to keep our flag, or alter it slightly, than a wholesale change.  I won't like it, whatever it is, if the theme design abandons our 15 year flag.

 

8

My reference to 80's Japan is mainly to point out the culture and environment of Japan that was present at its time. The main point I was making was to give TWP the same kind of feeling which new people see as being fun, bright, and promising. Also, sorry, westwind, but Japan's 80's was the most happening place in the world! :P Regardless, my focus is more of creating a bright and fun atmosphere, and the promise of a fulfilling NS career that outputs ten-fold given one's hard work and dedication.

Design-wise, it probably really doesn't matter too much, but I'd like to try and go for a retro look, that's what's "in" these days as I mentioned. The designing itself wouldn't seek to outright replace any aspect of TWP, but would try to put a tasteful spin on it. 

As for the color scheme, I had used the same colors as the traditional flag but up'd the vibrance to make it bloom. If it's too much, I can tune them down a bit. 

34 minutes ago, Darkesia said:

I have a crazy idea.  *watches everyone roll their eyes*

Flags:

I love the dragon flag where the dragon is clinging to the back of the sun for the Regional WFE flag.  I have always been partial to dragons and love them in all their literary and film adaptations.  I also really like the stamp-like, trendy flag that was Kawaii's, I think.  I like it because it looks like a stamp.  If we added a relief of words (or a dragon?) in the top part of the sun, it could easily be used as an FA seal for treaties and dispatches.  I dislike the first group of flags because they remind me too much of the Kaiser and WWI sensibilities.   However, I have always wanted to rp-live in Imperial Russia. 

3

That's not a bad idea, either! I could make a stamp graphic like that too, and using them for the FA would be a wonderful touch! Thanks for the suggestion!

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24 minutes ago, Kawaii said:

Japan's 80's was the most happening place in the world!

*chuckles* I've no doubt!

In the US, some people did very well, and some did very poorly. The economy didn't soar as some would make it seem, instead it fell back several times. I remember the storefronts suddenly going empty across the cities a couple times. The music sucked. Government spending to defeat the Soviets provided jobs, but took it's toll by taking resources from other parts of the economy. The Decade of Greed wasn't universal, it was only a section that flaunted it with their suits and cocaine which Hollywood loves to portray, the corruption of the Keating Five, Iran/Contra, 1987 Black Friday market crash, Savings and Loan crisis.....

A friend of mine and I were driving around downtown Kansas City in the '80's and we noticed these businessmen marching around the sidewalks in their grey suits as if they owned the world. We'd try to talk to them or at least get their attention. They wouldn't even respond to saying a simple 'Hi!" The thing that finally got their attention?  We called out "Dollar Bills!" and they all turned their heads in unison to look our way. It was hilarious. Silly human race. These businessmen walking shoulder to shoulder, three people wide.....we decided that The Who nailed it. "Eminence Front. It's a put on." (the rhythm/beat of the song perfectly matched the businessmens purposeful steps)

*winks*

31 minutes ago, Kawaii said:

a stamp graphic

 

approved_sm.jpg

 

 

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I have avoided publicly commenting on these changes because I wanted to let the process play itself out organically. However...

I understand Halo's reasons for trying a theme and I'm willing to give it a chance. As Westwind has shown, themes and ways of doing things can change over time. The Ele/Badger/Davelands/Neenee era of TWP was theme-less, maybe Halo will begin a themed era. Or not. If it doesn't work out it can easily be changed or removed.

I agree that it is 100% Halo's decision. He could wake up tomorrow and declare that we are now "TWP In Space" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmI77ZBeJrQ ) and go forward with that theme. But it's a better thing that he is asking for all this input. Maybe, like Dark said, we are close to something really good. Maybe some flexibility is in order by all sides.

But, one thing that I am against is the decision to add the Peers based on the whim of the Delegate. This is exactly the type of thing we created the Hall of Nations for. Honestly, if the Delegate proposed a change like this and it was debated and voted on by the Hall, there is almost no chance of it failing, so why not let them do it? It's been almost a year since the Hall did anything of substance besides run elections. If you wanted to spur activity then that would be a great way to start.

And I agree with Badger that Westwind's graphics were an amazing look back into the past.

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I agree with you, Dave, that The Hall of Nations could use the work and also that this would most likely pass, but I'm not presenting The Hall of Peers to the Hall for approval  because I don't want to start the precedent that all Manners changes have to be approved by The Hall of Nations. 

I did want everyone's input, though, which is why I brought this all up for discussion in the first place.

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As for me...

Well, to be honest, anyone of you folks who've been around me for any amount of time will know that I'm absolutely crazy about Japan. Not weeaboo crazy, just, y'know, love how they do life over there. So when I heard that you guys had a Japan option for the theme, I was like, hell yeah! Japan is such an amazing country. The food, culture, people...the list goes on and on. Even if you don't admire it you gotta admit they've got some cool staff over there. I think the main reason why is because we will have the advantage of the Japanese culture as well. Think about it. Their culture emphasizes honor and respect which goes perfectly with what were aiming for here in TWP! Also is the emphasis on the group and working as a team which can work for our raiders...I guess what I'm trying to say over here is that we would do well to learn from the Japanese and their way of life and that it would help us to be a better TWP!

Also Japanese food

Did I mention the food?

:TWPpiratewaveemote:

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Hello, this conversation has been very interesting! In the spirit of togetherness and friendship, I believe that I would like to change my vote to The Weeb Pacific. 

Here's a picture of Badger as an anime girl for inspiration:

Honey_BadgerOldDesign.jpg

 

I think that we can all agree this is the best direction for TWP. I'm gonna go ahead and assume that we're all on board here and heavily instigate this on Discord. Can't stop me now!! Bwahahaha! >:) 

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