Darkesia

New Theme Chatter

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11 minutes ago, Big Bad Badger said:

Honestly this entire process has left a really bad taste in my mouth for the way our region is governed. Perhaps it is time to discuss a second forum government to give the residents a voice. As WW has pointed out, it has happened in the past.

So when the delegate doesn’t govern the way you want, you just decide to change the government? I can’t believe a simple theme change is enough for a forum admin to threaten to create a new forum government. 

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2 minutes ago, Ark said:

So when the delegate doesn’t govern the way you want, you just decide to change the government? I can’t believe a simple theme change is enough for a forum admin to threaten to create a new forum government. 

No when the mechanisms (the hall of Nations) of the government aren't utilized and when the nations of the region are excluded in major region defining decisions. It is generally a sign of governmental issues. Something is not working. Therefore, maybe it is time to discuss solutions.

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23 minutes ago, Big Bad Badger said:

Honestly this entire process has left a really bad taste in my mouth for the way our region is governed. Perhaps it is time to discuss a second forum government to give the residents a voice. As WW has pointed out, it has happened in the past.

We need change, not replacement. While I love me a good ol' fashioned revolution, an honest discussion about present (and past) governments not being very responsive to the people is going to get the region further than suggesting a second government. This topic doesn't need any more discussion; it will only create needless divisiveness.

Bottom line: this is about activity, or rather the lack of it. The new theme is an attempt to inspire some new activity, and it's certainly a good idea, the execution is not as inclusive as it could be. Since the theme itself is trying to create activity, it makes sense to involve the community to actively shape it.

While well-intentioned and functional on paper, the Manners, the Hall, and the Delegacy have not acquitted themselves well in fostering activity. in the past few months there've been a couple threads about change, and that's a good start, but there has to be more discussion how to change the way we do things so we can get out of this cycle of regional stagnation.

 

Edited by Fujai
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You are right, Fujai. This is all about activity. After having listened to the discussion, and before voting had started, I had started to plan out how we would implement the theme change. I wanted the implementation itself to generate activity and I wanted it to be as inclusive as possible, so I had decided to hold a contest open to all of the residents of TWP. Teams would be tasked with developing ideas on how to implement whatever theme is chosen. They would be given certain guidelines, one of which would be to be respectful of TWP's character. 

This isn't the only program that we are going to put forth to try to generate activity. We have a lot that we're working on.

I can't believe the fuss over some fun window dressing. Does Osiris enslave Hebrews? Is Balder raiding monasteries? Is The Pacific feeding Christians to the lions? All of these regions, and many more (and us many times in the past) have themes and are still the kinds of regions they are because of the people there.

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1 hour ago, Westwind said:

What is this insult for?  What did you hope to accomplish with it?

Wasn't an insult. Just in reference to the people who create a nation, explore it for a couple days, then disappear forever. Clearly people who've been around for over a decade are not in the "will CTE a few weeks from now" Category. Didn't mean to make you feel insulted, West, I love your rocking chair, wise old posts. :) 

 

15 minutes ago, Saint Mark said:

I can't believe the fuss over some fun window dressing. Does Osiris enslave Hebrews? Is Balder raiding monasteries? Is The Pacific feeding Christians to the lions? All of these regions, and many more (and us many times in the past) have themes and are still the kinds of regions they are because of the people there.

Weeeelll... not the Hebrews, no. But someone is definitely building those pyramids... 

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38 minutes ago, Saint Mark said:

You are right, Fujai. This is all about activity. After having listened to the discussion, and before voting had started, I had started to plan out how we would implement the theme change. I wanted the implementation itself to generate activity and I wanted it to be as inclusive as possible, so I had decided to hold a contest open to all of the residents of TWP. Teams would be tasked with developing ideas on how to implement whatever theme is chosen. They would be given certain guidelines, one of which would be to be respectful of TWP's character. 

That's definitely a step in the right direction, though I have two questions about it.

First, why not just do this in the first place and skip the part where we vote on three options? Kawaii, OT, and Ark could certainly head their own teams and if one of their themes was chosen then more power to them. That seems like a really good compromise between more community involvement and keeping it centralized to me, and could have avoided a lot of this drama.

Second, if you had the beginning of this plan before voting started, why wasn't there more transparency? Again a lot of this drama could've been at least soothed by more fluid communication (not that I claim to be good at communication myself).

38 minutes ago, Saint Mark said:

This isn't the only program that we are going to put forth to try to generate activity. We have a lot that we're working on.

Can you tell us what they are and how to get involved, should we desire?

I've noticed it a lot in past and present Delegacies that changes and new programs are very much a "guardians and ministers only" club. Right now those two groups overlap a lot, which doesn't help the situation. We always complain to ourselves that the regional government isn't very active, and yet we have regional governments that aren't inclusive in the activity that's happening.

People keep saying something we as a region need to think more about: if there's no ownership, then what incentive does the community have to interact with it?

The answer is, of course: none. We can try to make incentives like the peerage and point systems, but if the community doesn't feel like something is genuinely theirs—like the're not intrinsically a part of something—then there's no reason to be involved. That's one reason some of us don't like the three themes presented. They don't feel like TWP—they don't feel like something the community can rally behind and say "this is who we are."

There's a discussion to be had on whether a theme should do that. I argue that if a theme doesn't inspire long-term feelings of regional spirit and belonging, then what good is it? A real theme should be a tool to enhance regional identity, not just as a change of clothes to throw off every so often.

Edited by Fujai
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I am greatly saddened by where this is heading... it sounds like "It's my way or the by-way" with no option for the greatest percentage of TWP players to get a say, even if it were an advisory one.

Obviously, the residents have had the option to become involved in this forum but we all know that this has not happened in the past and was never going to happen this time either so the outcome has been determined by the votes of about 31 players out of many times that possible number. It is incredulous that in an attempt to increase interest and participation we are  rejecting a ploy that would have certainly achieved that objective!   The result might well have been the same as the forum vote, anyway :) 

 

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I've been part of a few "my way or the by-way" situations (including some in THIS region) and this doesn't feel like that to me. This feels more like an honest effort from a delegate eager to try something to encourage activity. "We need more activity" has been a point for a while here, I know I heard it while I was delegate. I just didn't have it in me to enact any sweeping changes. Part of that was likely because of the reaction I was sure that I would get, from both in and out of the region. Halo, apparently, does.

I'm iffy on some aspects of this, there are certain things I'd have preferred to have seen done differently. I didn't participate in the conversation, and that was my choice; I'd seen the TG about it. However, I'm down to see how this goes. It could end up amazing. But if it sucks, I trust that Halo will make an effort to adjust things so they do not suck.

When things don't change, we end up in a place with a good ol' boys club. I've seen it happen here before. 

So, really, the way I see it, the worst thing that happens with this is people are cranky, it doesn't work, and Halo adjusts it. The best is that it's actually fun and new people get active on some level, participating.

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Regarding themes. Anything is fine for me. Because I'm quite a fan of those days (Imperial Russia, Dynastic China and Shogunate Japan). But hey, if other than that. I'm cool with it.

It would be awesome if we go with Feudal Japan. Huehuehue. :D

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17 hours ago, Big Bad Badger said:

Honestly this entire process has left a really bad taste in my mouth for the way our region is governed. Perhaps it is time to discuss a second forum government to give the residents a voice. As WW has pointed out, it has happened in the past.

I was feeling and thinking something similar. Perhaps not a full government, I was thinking more on the line of a Hall of Nations, separate from the existing off-site institutions, intended to bring people together and with no goals for the delegacy. Wanna chat about it?

17 hours ago, Saint Mark said:

You were the one who set up the current government structure based upon what already existed in TWP, Badger.

Recognizing when one's own creation has surpassed one or has become disappointing IS a form of Wisdom.

17 hours ago, Ark said:

So when the delegate doesn’t govern the way you want, you just decide to change the government? I can’t believe a simple theme change is enough for a forum admin to threaten to create a new forum government. 

I don't think this is a threat, it is a statement of intent. You live in TWP Ark, the ONE AND ONLY region in NS where you could see a group of disfranchised inhabitants come together, form a new institution of any sort, take advantage of the existing off site forums instead of creating new ones (and hence avoiding a whole can of worms of issues) and find their own way to build, live and enjoy community. If this threatens you, man, I think perhaps TWP is not the right place for you. This was the hardest part for me to learn. 

17 hours ago, Fujai said:

We need change, not replacement. While I love me a good ol' fashioned revolution, an honest discussion about present (and past) governments not being very responsive to the people is going to get the region further than suggesting a second government. This topic doesn't need any more discussion; it will only create needless divisiveness.

I don't disagree that we don't need a revolution. But the art of conversation between two opposing parties implies that both of them are willing to move towards a more center-position. You get close to me as I get close to you.

The party in this situation that is not comfortable with the current proposal made a reach by requesting a simple middle-ground solution, and the other party didn't budged a millimeter. What conversation could be held?. 

17 hours ago, Saint Mark said:

I can't believe the fuss over some fun window dressing. Does Osiris enslave Hebrews? Is Balder raiding monasteries? Is The Pacific feeding Christians to the lions? All of these regions, and many more (and us many times in the past) have themes and are still the kinds of regions they are because of the people there.

The last time a new windows dressing was purchase at my house, my wife picked an option, may in-law picked an option (RIP), I picked an option, and then we discussed keeping the "Neither of the above" as a valid option. That won, and we went for a different approach. If this "theme" is as light as a Windows Dressing, why was it so hard for you to accept the possibility of a "neither of the above" and a more global selection process?? It seems to me you are down-playing now what you previously up-played... (damn made up words, damn them)

9 hours ago, Neenee said:

So, really, the way I see it, the worst thing that happens with this is people are cranky, it doesn't work, and Halo adjusts it. The best is that it's actually fun and new people get active on some level, participating.

Or, as it is happening in this case, the powers that be held themselves tight to their idea despite the fact that there are serious and rational doubts about it. Why wouldn't this happen later? For all we know, and the evidence present, your "Halo adjusts it" may not be a real thing, given that they weren't ready or willing to adjust the selection process - which is also the most adjustable part with less work.

Anyway, as I say, I respect the delegate and his authority, that doesn't means I need to agree with any of what is done.

Furthermore, I'm not even part of the Hall of Nations so I guess I shouldn't even have the right to mess with this, according to the way things have been handled so far... As WW says, my opinion doesn't matter.

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4 hours ago, Elegarth said:

I was feeling and thinking something similar. Perhaps not a full government, I was thinking more on the line of a Hall of Nations, separate from the existing off-site institutions, intended to bring people together and with no goals for the delegacy. Wanna chat about it?

We could have The Sacred Order of the West Pacific as a separate institution from the government for example. Has it's own theme, with a TWP historical basis. Grants titles, has an NS ideology...

We don't need the Delegacy to manage our own affairs and policies, we would continue to recognize the sitting Delegate. Seven former TWP Delegates are members of The Sacred Order, including two current Guardians. The Delegate could join The Sacred Order and still maintain their own government and theme.

Spoiler

 

The Grand Inquisitor, westwind__683874t2.jpgWestwind of all_good_people__453083t2.jpgAll Good People

- The Cardinal of the Eternal Dungeons, yy4u__378593t2.jpgYy4u
- The Cardinal of Chocolate Righteousness, darkesia__894830t2.jpgDarkesia
- The Cardinal Protector of the West, wickedly_evil_people__143493t2.jpgWickedly evil people
- The Cardinal of the Most Evil, bhang_bhang_duc__332162t2.pngBhang Bhang Duc

Non-World Assembly Delegate tao_the_watcher__391223t2.pngTAO the Watcher, Unquestioning Raconteur of the West.

TWP Military:

Members of The Sacred Order that serve in the TWP Military are entitled to the rank of:

Knights of the Sacred Order

 

Granted Titles and Positions of The Sacred Order

The Bishop of The Forbidden, Holy Keeper of the Pantheon of Flags, Tweedy
Holy Minister of The Sacred Order for Silly Walks, tunapocalypse__196495t2.jpgTunapocalypse
Champion Commander of the Knights of the Sacred Order, Archsium
Knight of the Sacred Order- mediobogdum__150045t2.jpgMediobogdum

Acolytes:

Cleansed Seeker of The First Circle:

- mediobogdum__150045t2.jpgMediobogdum

Former members:

The Bishop of the Grand Assembly -  benjamin_mark__923312t2.jpgBenjamin Mark
Holy Minister For World Assembly Affairs - Douria 
Holy Minister For Foreign Affairs, - The fifth imperium (aka God Emperor on our forum)
Holy Deputy Minister For Foreign Affairs - Arcovea (Karland on our forum)
Holy Minister For Domestic Affairs - Vulcan prime

 

 

22 hours ago, Ark said:

I can’t believe a simple theme change is enough for a forum admin to threaten to create a new forum government. 

You misunderstand.

Badger is speaking for himself, not admin.  The forum has recognized and provided forums for multiple governments before, more than once. The forum recognizes the TWP community, and the ingame authority of the Delegate. Governments are in reality a form of Role Play that is only tied to the game by the Delegate's recognition of it, as we recognize game mechanics as the true arbitor of ingame authority. The forum seeks to provide everything the Delegate needs and provides for the Delegate's government, but not exclusively.

We serve the community.  By allowing in-region opposition their own space, the community stays together and in time works to resolve differences as needed. This is the TWP way, and it has served us well for 12-13 years. I've seen large communities torn apart into separate forums and half the community never comes back and abandon's the game entirely in frustration. So many fantastic players lost to that.  Thus, our forum serves the community, not just a government.  Winnie has provided us all with a safe forum home for all (except those that get themselves banned for COPS treaty issues, et al), that isn't overly restrictive as those forums needing to conform to a third party TOS can be.

We respect our players by seeking to preserve the whole community. 

There was an opposition group when I was Delegate. There was an opposition group during Yy's delegacy.

There were the two governments after the Senate refused to work with Fae so she resigned the Delegacy and quit the game. She should have dissolved the government instead, but that government did not recognize game mechanic supremacy and tied her hands as she tried to work with them.  Offsite government restraint of the Delegate results in inactive and rogue delegates, and split communities. Again, the forum resolves that by placing both the ingame appointed Delegate and the whole Community first before any particular government.

If the Delegate's government works against the Delegate, and the Delegate ceases to recognize that government? The forum will continue to serve that government, while recognizing and providing for the Delegate's new government.  That serves the entire community and avoids breaking it up, while recognizing the Delegate's prerogative.

I think some misunderstand this, which brings them to be confused by those that say they respect the Delegate's choice, while expressing issues with or opposition to that same choice. As has been said, these are not incompatible positions. 

4 hours ago, Elegarth said:

The party in this situation that is not comfortable with the current proposal made a reach by requesting a simple middle-ground solution, and the other party didn't budged a millimeter. What conversation could be held?. 

Precisely.

The delegate asked for participation, yet those with ideas or concerns, have had their thoughts replied to with hollow assurances, rather than any attempt to hear or consider or address opinions/ideas/concerns expressed. That's my impression anyway. 

23 hours ago, Saint Mark said:

West, it was your choice not to participate in the government by not becoming a citizen. You still have been not only allowed to express your opinion, but listened to with respect.

Yes,  I sacrifice my ability to participate in order to remain an unbiased neutral admin.*sniffles overly dramatically, wipes a tear from his eye feeling the immensity of his sacrifice....falls out of his chair laughing*  

Although, I submitted my resignation as Admin in March 2018. But I can't remove my masking myself, and Winnie has left it as it, and I've given the admins my 2 cents on things that come up. *chuckles*

I also didn't post an oath when our NationStates Republic government required it either. In that case I didn't agree with TWP turning it's governance over to an inter-regional body (sorry PD). Other regions could determine our policies. Of course, I was later the one to dissolve the NS Republic when I became Delegate. It was dead, the only active member was it's President...I don't remember his name or what region he was from....and he was barely active.  But it did have some good activity during Enlightened Defenders Delegacy, and it was altered to ensure TWP's sovereignty.

Remember to cut out the deadwood as you progress to allow new growth.

Anyway, you didn't address anything I said or asked before, only commented on my citizenship which I'd already mentioned, so....

6 hours ago, Elegarth said:

As WW says, my opinion doesn't matter.

:P

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2 minutes ago, Westwind said:

We could have The Sacred Order of the West Pacific as a separate institution from the government for example. Has it's own theme, with a TWP historical basis. Grants titles, has an NS ideology...

We don't need the Delegacy to manage our own affairs and policies, we would continue to recognize the sitting Delegate. Seven former TWP Delegates are members of The Sacred Order, including two current Guardians. The Delegate could join The Sacred Order and still maintain their own government and theme.

  Hide contents

 

The Grand Inquisitor, westwind__683874t2.jpgWestwind of all_good_people__453083t2.jpgAll Good People

- The Cardinal of the Eternal Dungeons, yy4u__378593t2.jpgYy4u
- The Cardinal of Chocolate Righteousness, darkesia__894830t2.jpgDarkesia
- The Cardinal Protector of the West, wickedly_evil_people__143493t2.jpgWickedly evil people
- The Cardinal of the Most Evil, bhang_bhang_duc__332162t2.pngBhang Bhang Duc

Non-World Assembly Delegate tao_the_watcher__391223t2.pngTAO the Watcher, Unquestioning Raconteur of the West.

TWP Military:

Members of The Sacred Order that serve in the TWP Military are entitled to the rank of:

Knights of the Sacred Order

 

Granted Titles and Positions of The Sacred Order

The Bishop of The Forbidden, Holy Keeper of the Pantheon of Flags, Tweedy
Holy Minister of The Sacred Order for Silly Walks, tunapocalypse__196495t2.jpgTunapocalypse
Champion Commander of the Knights of the Sacred Order, Archsium
Knight of the Sacred Order- mediobogdum__150045t2.jpgMediobogdum

Acolytes:

Cleansed Seeker of The First Circle:

- mediobogdum__150045t2.jpgMediobogdum

Former members:

The Bishop of the Grand Assembly -  benjamin_mark__923312t2.jpgBenjamin Mark
Holy Minister For World Assembly Affairs - Douria 
Holy Minister For Foreign Affairs, - The fifth imperium (aka God Emperor on our forum)
Holy Deputy Minister For Foreign Affairs - Arcovea (Karland on our forum)
Holy Minister For Domestic Affairs - Vulcan prime

 

 

I would feel honored to become the eight former delegate member of The Sacred Order. I think it was around there that I started to have contact with TWP significantly and I always admired The Sacred Order.

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3 minutes ago, Elegarth said:

I would feel honored to become the eight former delegate member of The Sacred Order. I think it was around there that I started to have contact with TWP significantly and I always admired The Sacred Order.

*puts on his Grand Inquisitor robes.... gold highlighted crimson upon a sable field, edged with silvery white fur and and strong gilded threads, covering the formal military uniform with decorations of many Regions beneath, and his SC Commendation medallion hanging from his neck.*

*raises his hands to the heavens in supplication*

The Sacred Order would be blessed should you choose to join. 

*ponders*

I'll have to refresh my memory on the proper ceremony. And recollecting the Sacred Numerology, it seems that bringing the tally to Eight Delegates, the number of Money and Wealth, would surely be profitable.

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I also seemed to have had misplaced three other former members: Former Holy Ministers Treize Dreizehn , Intelligent Holograms and Charax 

And it's worth noting that The Sacred Order embraces other Orders in NationStates, including The Crimson Order, the New TAO Order.....although I am concerned The New Pacific Order has lost it's way. Perhaps someday the NPO can return to the Sacred Order and complete the Gates of Redemption and Reunification Ceremonies and restore harmony between The Pacific and The West Pacific.

16 minutes ago, Elegarth said:

*joins The Sacred Order of the West Pacific*

*raises his hands to the heavens in supplication*

*bows low to the earth bringing his arms down in a sweeping motion*

*stands again*

Welcome Former Delegate Elegarth!

It is a honor to accept you into The Sacred Order. There is no doubt that your service to The West Pacific is deserving of recognition by The Sacred Order. A Grant of Title will be made upon due consideration. In the meantime, you are hereby Welcomed into The Sacred Order of The West Pacific as an Honored Entered Acolyte of The First Circle.

I believe that Cleansed Seeker of The First Circle Mediobogdum is due for a Grant of Title as well. 

*raises his hands again*

May the blessings of Max and ADMIN be upon you!

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There's a lot that's really interesting going on here, and it's really interesting to watch. It seems like Halo could have saved himself a lot of pain in this thread if he'd compromised by letting the theme change be a regional poll--I'm not criticizing you Halo, merely observing. The argument isn't really about what theme would be best any more and the shift in topic could have been avoided but at this point there's not really a compromise anymore because the discussion has really become one of regional political philosophy. (My own two cents are that I agree with WestWind that I think the in-game polls could have handled this better.)

I'm actually only posting because at the close of voting, two themes were tied for second place, so I wanted to know how @Saint Mark chose which ones to send on to the run-off vote. (Here I'm less unbiased: I voted for Japan and it had just as many votes as China did!)

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35 minutes ago, Reçueçn said:

There's a lot that's really interesting going on here, and it's really interesting to watch. It seems like Halo could have saved himself a lot of pain in this thread if he'd compromised by letting the theme change be a regional poll--I'm not criticizing you Halo, merely observing. The argument isn't really about what theme would be best any more and the shift in topic could have been avoided but at this point there's not really a compromise anymore because the discussion has really become one of regional political philosophy. (My own two cents are that I agree with WestWind that I think the in-game polls could have handled this better.)

I'm actually only posting because at the close of voting, two themes were tied for second place, so I wanted to know how @Saint Mark chose which ones to send on to the run-off vote. (Here I'm less unbiased: I voted for Japan and it had just as many votes as China did!)

No problem. I hadn't cast my own vote earlier because I didn't want to influence anyone's choice. I cast my vote for China, breaking the tie between the two. :D

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