Darkesia

New Theme Chatter

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I promise that whichever theme is chosen, I will take my time implementing it, using it only as a starting point to come up with something that is uniquely TWP. My thought is that I will form an implementation committee to advise me on this so that I receive a broader range of ideas. No plan will make everyone happy, but my goal will certainly be to put in place something that at least most of us can be proud of.

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I have only recently started to be involved in TWP so I'm not sure I feel as strongly toward the current theme as some, but I don't think there would be harm in exploring new themes using the ideas active and contributing members have come up with. I also kind of feel the theme TWP has now is very reminiscent of previous cabinets and region personalities that have long since changed their roles in this region. I think TWP has changed a lot since such members and think it'd be healthy for our theme to adapt and reflect that, showing newer members that they can be involved with the shaping and changing of this region instead of looking on it and feeling a bit disconnected from the culture of those previous cabinets.

In the past I have worked alongside The West quite a bit and looked in on TWP as other regions have and I do admit I associate the theme with certain members and kind of freeze framed TWP like that. I'm not sure if other regions or players did that as well but only after joining have I seen how much it has changed since then. I think that is a little alarming and a changed theme might help others on the outside looking in see how much it's changed up in here. I do recognize some people not being thrilled about it, but what if there were a trial period for a theme? After the trial period we could reevaluate to see how everyone likes it overall and determine from there if it's a bust or not.

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On 1/15/2019 at 9:10 AM, Big Bad Badger said:

I really don't think any of the themes speak to me.  I kind of like the laid back beach vision of TWP that I have always had.  Tahiti is how I always imagined TWP.  Not an imperial dynasty or kingdom. 

The idea of changing the flag seems...unTWP like.  The traditional setting sunburst is iconic and has been the TWP banner for....a really long time.  

Furthermore, I haven't seen a compelling reason to change it.

I guess what really seems...odd to me is if it is done through the hall of nations.  Then we will be voting on a theme change for the entire region with like 15 people voting... I understand the concept of Delegate supremacy and all.  But I think that this is going a little far.

I vote for tradition!

I must say this echoes what I mostly feel about it. I don't like gimmicks, as they are easy to derail and harder to maintain. We already have a laid back culture which is easy to go and learn, get used to, etc.


Furthermore, the themes proposes seem forced to me... Not natural or native... I'm not a fan.

I also vote for tradition tbh

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8 hours ago, Saint Mark said:

I promise that whichever theme is chosen, I will take my time implementing it, using it only as a starting point to come up with something that is uniquely TWP. My thought is that I will form an implementation committee to advise me on this so that I receive a broader range of ideas. No plan will make everyone happy, but my goal will certainly be to put in place something that at least most of us can be proud of.

If you are going to do this by vote, why not add the option to REMAIN as we ARE? Would that be something you will be willing to do? Seems fair to me...

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57 replies during a 5 day discussion between about 9 players is not "a discussion at lenght" nor a "most people"

 

You have the right to do this, lets just not pretend it is a public driven thing when it isn't. I am all for making clear what is clear. 

 

You are merely taking the opinion of a few in something you already decided to go with, but there isn't any real option. Let's not fool ourselves. 

 

I do wonder, if you are so sure "most people" supports this, why didnt you take it to an in game poll, make it official, and add the no change option

 

That would have been the fire test to your supposed massive support. 

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From what I'm seeing, there's three main opinions: those in favor of one of the three presented themes, those in favor of a change, but not one of the themes presented, and those not in favor of a change. 

While it's Halo's perogative and I understand the reasoning, adding either a "Different Theme" and/or a "No Change" option would have soothed people's opinions and made them feel more included and valued. As we've seen here and other places, a community involved process doesn't mean all thousands of nations are involved, this thread alone has less than twenty different posters in it. Just because it may be a little more contentious and complicated doesn't make community involvement in decision making a bad idea.

Regardless of what happens, I have faith that Halo will make it work and we'll have a successful theme, even though the one that wins won't be everyone's first choice.

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I can see absolutely no reason why we cannot present these options, plus others, to the TWP players as a Regional Poll.  It would give a much wider set of opinions and might even come up with some new options. In addition, it would make the players feel much more involved and that they 'own' what is happening. 

It is understood that there might be some attempts at rigging the vote by outside influences, but this issue can be easily sidestepped by clearly stating that we are only allowing nations who have been in the region prior to 1 Feb 2019, or maybe 1 Jan 2019, to vote and to make the poll as an advisory, but meaningful, one to the Delegate.  Sorting out the false 'claims' from the probable few hundred voters might be time consuming but still worth the effort.  Just out of interest, is it possible to delete a vote from the list by the poll originator so this might be another way of cleaning the pollsters out who are not eligible?

Suggest Options: Russia, China, Japan, Pirate, No Change, Other- state on rmb with case argued.  Options randomly placed in the selection list, of course!

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I think that this is a real positive idea that will help the chosen theme gain legitimacy in the region.

I agree that it feels like we are rushing into this when legit discussion is/was still taking place.

I am increasingly unsettled that the only people allowed to vote on the regional theme are Hall of Nations members.

It doesn't seem representative of the region.

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3 hours ago, Elegarth said:

57 replies during a 5 day discussion between about 9 players is not "a discussion at lenght" nor a "most people"

 

You have the right to do this, lets just not pretend it is a public driven thing when it isn't. I am all for making clear what is clear. 

 

You are merely taking the opinion of a few in something you already decided to go with, but there isn't any real option. Let's not fool ourselves. 

 

I do wonder, if you are so sure "most people" supports this, why didnt you take it to an in game poll, make it official, and add the no change option

 

That would have been the fire test to your supposed massive support. 

There were twenty different players discussing this here, of which twelve were definitely for the themes, six against and two it's hard to say from posts here. That is more input than we've had in anything that has happened here as far as I can remember. I have also had dms and tgs from players and many other conversations. I also sent a region-wide tg telling everyone what was happening and asking them to become citizens so that they could take part in the discussion. This was also discussed in the Cabinet for weeks. Several other options were discussed. I never said the support was massive, but it is clearly in favor.

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I agree that interest in the theme change has been more than for all other subjects that have come up for debate in recent times, which is great news.  The numbers still do not, in my opinion, come anywhere near to a mandate from the player community at large.  By denying them a say, even if it is an advisory one, seems to me to be overly restrictive and may result in feelings of having been ridden roughshod and ignored.

It is understood that much work has been done by yourself and the proponents of the shortlisted themes, and that by going to the populace may seem be be against your personal wishes/judgement.  However, I fail to see what the cogent argument(s) for not doing so is/are. Of course, the final path ahead is your's to chart, but if I were a player and knew that a theme change was in the offing I would love, nay expect, to be at least asked my views.  After all, without the players, what is the region's raison d'etre?

 

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On 1/18/2019 at 3:08 PM, Saint Mark said:

No, this was discussed at length here and elsewhere and most were in favor of a theme change, or at the least not opposed. 

*raises eyebrow*

Where?

Again, I'm not on Discord, so I don't know where this lengthy discussion occurred, because it certainly wasn't here or ingame.

You seem to have a different POV than those outside your circle. I think it would be wise to consider this.

8 hours ago, Elegarth said:

You have the right to do this, lets just not pretend it is a public driven thing when it isn't. I am all for making clear what is clear. 

 

Correct and agreed. It isn't an organic change, let's not pretend that it is.

6 hours ago, Mediobogdum said:

It is understood that there might be some attempts at rigging the vote by outside influences,

As I mentioned before, if you set the poll on Native, you can only vote if you have more Influence in TWP than any other region. And if you set it on Large Nations, nations under 1 billion can't vote. IMO you can get a fairly secure ingame vote. But it seem everyone in NS doesn't realize this. 

But then, it's a pet peeve of mine of that many ignore ingame features in favor of offisite control.

 

6 hours ago, Big Bad Badger said:

I agree that it feels like we are rushing into this when legit discussion is/was still taking place.

 

Also agreed. What's the rush?

Let me follow up on my comments about having made theme changes in my time. I took the Delegacy of a TWP that had a brand new inactive forum, no formal government, no constitution/charter/whatever. I was starting from scratch.  That's not the case now. 

4 hours ago, Mediobogdum said:

may result in feelings of having been ridden roughshod and ignored.

I am afraid my feeling is that this change is being ramrodded down the region's throat, with a couple days of comment substituting for discussion, debate, and input, where any alternative thoughts are dismissed when they were never considered in the first place.  Saint Mark seems overly defensive and apologetic, which doesn't inspire confidence in this plan of action.

Or in other words, this all seems poorly handled and poorly presented.

As I said, fourth impression:  My opinion doesn't matter. Sadly, regardless of the Delegate posting promises, I have little confidence in this change under these circumstances. 

4 hours ago, Saint Mark said:

This was also discussed in the Cabinet for weeks.

Most of us are not in the Cabinet, and nowhere do I see evidence of this. You are defending yourself instead of promoting your position.....it feels strange and makes me wonder why you are so defensive.

4 hours ago, Mediobogdum said:

interest in the theme change has been more than for all other subjects that have come up for debate in recent times

How often does the Delegate/Cabinet/Guardians bring such issues before the region?

Isn't it true that controversy drives conflict which drives activity?

Isn't it shutting down this same activity by rushing to a conclusion?

4 hours ago, Mediobogdum said:

After all, without the players, what is the region's raison d'etre?

*nods* A Delegate, Guardian, Minister should be servants of the region.

 

 

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Lol. I feel like an onsite vote is a little on "too little too late" territory at this point. Kind of having a hard time processing the disparity between "I respect the delegate's decisions" and "but the delegate should do things by my methods." What the delegate has chosen to do is give TWP a theme. He's also chosen to give citizens of the region a say in the direction of that theme. Very kind of him. And wise, to make sure that those involved in making long term decisions for TWP are people who understand the place and will not CTE a few weeks from now, unaffected by what their randomly chosen vote brings us. Or vote stackers. Or trolly people from different regions taking that opportunity to decide TWP's fate without TWP's consent. Wouldn't that just be a disaster. 

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9 hours ago, Altino said:

I feel like an onsite vote is a little on "too little too late" territory at this point.

Seeing as the whole process is up to the delegate's discretion, the only "too late" point is when the new theme is in place.

9 hours ago, Altino said:

Kind of having a hard time processing the disparity between "I respect the delegate's decisions" and "but the delegate should do things by my methods."

Respecting the delegate's decisions and wanting more community input are not mutually exclusive. It's not "my methods are better," it's more "we think there hasn't been enough community input in this process and that may jeopardize the success of a theme change."

9 hours ago, Altino said:

What the delegate has chosen to do is give TWP a theme. He's also chosen to give citizens of the region a say in the direction of that theme.

Yes, but the extent of that say has been voting in the nice and neat poll that includes only the options presented to us by the cabinet. There hasn't been, and I hazard that there never was intended to be, community involvement in the actual drafting process.

There's no reason the delegate couldn't have come to the community, or just the Hall, and said "We're going to have a theme change. How do you feel about that? What do you think of these preliminary options we've come up with so far, and do you have any suggestions of your own?" That would've spawned discussion similar to this one, but without people being miffed by an exclusionary process.

9 hours ago, Altino said:

And wise, to make sure that those involved in making long term decisions for TWP are people who understand the place and will not CTE a few weeks from now, unaffected by what their randomly chosen vote brings us. Or vote stackers. Or trolly people from different regions

As WW pointed out, there are poll options gameside to make it fairly secure. Opening the vote to all residents over 1B will certainly get a better response than the couple dozen in the Hall.

Better yet, if we actually put effort into promoting and advertising the Hall, perhaps we wouldn't have that problem.

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11 hours ago, Altino said:

I feel like an onsite vote is a little on "too little too late" territory at this point.

As the motto of Westwind Armed Forces says, "There is always a choice"

11 hours ago, Altino said:

Kind of having a hard time processing the disparity between "I respect the delegate's decisions" and "but the delegate should do things by my methods."

There is no disparity.  We support our Delegate, we don't worship the Delegate.

Why should everyone mindlessly follow along without having their own opinion expressed and recognized?  Welcome to the world of Politics and Community dynamics.

 

11 hours ago, Altino said:

He's also chosen to give citizens of the region a say in the direction of that theme.

This is not true. I am in the region, have been for many many years - 15 years, yet I have no say. I am disenfranchised by the government.

11 hours ago, Altino said:

And wise, to make sure that those involved in making long term decisions for TWP are people who understand the place and will not CTE a few weeks from now, unaffected by what their randomly chosen vote brings us

What is this insult for?  What did you hope to accomplish with it?

The rest of what you said shows you didn't read what others wrote, and for some reason have chosen to be offended by those with another opinion.

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1 hour ago, Fujai said:

Respecting the delegate's decisions and wanting more community input are not mutually exclusive. It's not "my methods are better," it's more "we think there hasn't been enough community input in this process and that may jeopardize the success of a theme change."

 

This is exactly my point. If you want the theme to be successful there must be community buy in. The best way to achieve that is by giving the community ownership of the process.

Instead we are told "trust us". And those of us who have wanted to discuss the process have been put down, discredited, and mocked for being afraid of change.

 

1 hour ago, Fujai said:

Yes, but the extent of that say has been voting in the nice and neat poll that includes only the options presented to us by the cabinet. There hasn't been, and I hazard that there never was intended to be, community involvement in the actual drafting process.

 

This is exactly right as pointed out by Kawaii on discord:3F20F300-E227-409A-8F59-F781168CEDAC.jpeg

 

2 hours ago, Fujai said:

There's no reason the delegate couldn't have come to the community, or just the Hall, and said "We're going to have a theme change. How do you feel about that? What do you think of these preliminary options we've come up with so far, and do you have any suggestions of your own?" That would've spawned discussion similar to this one, but without people being miffed by an exclusionary process.

This is the exact approach to create community! Instead of creating the opposite...an us vs them environment.

When there's absolutely nothing occurring in the Hall except elections, sure this discussion could have occurred in a healthy and meaningful way. 

Honestly this entire process has left a really bad taste in my mouth for the way our region is governed. Perhaps it is time to discuss a second forum government to give the residents a voice. As WW has pointed out, it has happened in the past.

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