Overthinkers

[DISCUSSION] Criminal and Civil Code

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As promised, I want to start work on finally establishing TWP's civil and criminal codes. As it stands right now, I have very few ideas on how to get started, so I seek ideas and suggestions from as many citizens as possible. No idea is a bad idea (okay I know better than to say that but you get the point).

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So, potential crimes and punishments thereof:

  • RMB spam, warning/ejection/banjection. Subject to appeal. 
  • RMB recruitment, banjection. Not subject to appeal. 
  • Treason (Epsionage, Conspiracy), persona non grata. Not subject to appeal (since there would be a trial?)
  • Treason (non-RMB sedition), banjection. Subject to appeal. 
  •  Violation of the endocap, warning/ejection/banjection. Depending on the case, subject to appeal. 
  • Gross misconduct (OOC problems), depends from severity of issue. Not subject to appeal. Administratively enforced. 

All of these crimes except for the last one can be pardoned by the Delegate. 

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26 minutes ago, Aelitia said:

I would disagree with the idea of Atlae that an offence could not be pardoned by the delegate. I believe delegate supremacy should be explicitly recognized by any civil or criminal code in The West Pacific. 

Well, when I included the last offense, I wasn’t intending it to be a triable offense, due to the volatility of many situations. I believe I used it to acknowledge the extrajudicial authority by forum administration to ban those who they deemed to be a threat to the community. 

I don’t think I fathomed then that the Delegate would want to overturn those decisions, especially if the Delegate happens to be a part of the admin team. 

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4 minutes ago, Atlae said:

Well, when I included the last offense, I wasn’t intending it to be a triable offense, due to the volatility of many situations. I believe I used it to acknowledge the extrajudicial authority by forum administration to ban those who they deemed to be a threat to the community. 

I don’t think I fathomed then that the Delegate would want to overturn those decisions, especially if the Delegate happens to be a part of the admin team. 

If the forum admin team is going to be under the same law as the gameside government, then the Delegate must be supreme over the forum team. Personally, I don't like gameside government = offsite government (though membership overlap is fine); I prefer they be separate entities. But I'm more experienced in the onsite/offsite workings of UCRs than GCRs.

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11 minutes ago, Overthinkers said:

If the forum admin team is going to be under the same law as the gameside government, then the Delegate must be supreme over the forum team. Personally, I don't like gameside government = offsite government (though membership overlap is fine); I prefer they be separate entities. But I'm more experienced in the onsite/offsite workings of UCRs than GCRs.

Ideally, the forum admin team would not be subject to the same bureaucratic process if needed to quickly get rid of a danger to the community. What I intended with the Gross Misconduct charge is not for it to go through the courts, instead just to explain what authority the admins have, and that the decisions were not appealable. 

Actually, now that I think about it, the Gross Misconduct charge could be split up in two - the first could be the boring old recalls with neglect of their office, and the second one with more severe problems, i.e. harassment. I thought of the latter one in mind when crafting it. 

EDIT: when you said “offsite government,” I hope you meant admins or something of that nature, otherwise that’s opening another can of worms. :P 

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10 minutes ago, Atlae said:

Ideally, the forum admin team would not be subject to the same bureaucratic process if needed to quickly get rid of a danger to the community. What I intended with the Gross Misconduct charge is not for it to go through the courts, instead just to explain what authority the admins have, and that the decisions were not appealable. 

Actually, now that I think about it, the Gross Misconduct charge could be split up in two - the first could be the boring old recalls with neglect of their office, and the second one with more severe problems, i.e. harassment. I thought of the latter one in mind when crafting it. 

EDIT: when you said “offsite government,” I hope you meant admins or something of that nature, otherwise that’s opening another can of worms. :P 

Yes, by offsite government I mean admins/mods. Sorry. :P

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For the sake of simplicity, I wouldn’t include any specific senstences for these violations. Just include a clause noting that the Delegate (and whomever he deems responsible for matters of law & justice) will decide the sentencing and that it can range from a warning to being permanently banned from TWP. 

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I just want to make sure that we're acknowledging what procedure The Manners is establishing already in regard to our region's judicial practices:

Spoiler

Judicial 

1. The Delegate and the Guardians may banject nations from The West Pacific for breaking on-site rules, for uncivilized behaviour in the region, for attempting to forcibly change or undermine the Delegacy, or for any other violation to The West Pacific way of life. The Code of Conduct of The West Pacific shall serve as a useful guide to the accepted behavior of members of The West Pacific; however, the Delegate and the Guardians discretion are not limited by this document.    

2. If a citizen is banjected they will appeal to the Delegate, The Speaker of the Hall of Nations and the Guardian who ejected them.  The three shall make a collective decision on the appeal. If a non-citizen is banjected from the region, appeal will be decided collectively by the Delegate and the Guardian who ejected the nation.    

3. All criminal and civil disputes which occur on the off-site forum of the region shall be arbitrated by a Tribunal comprised of the Delegate, a Guardian selected by their peers, and the Speaker of the Hall of Nations.       

4. A Criminal and Civil Code and other legislation shall be established by the Hall of Nations and approved by the Delegate to provide for laws for all properties owned, operated and recognized by the legal Delegate of The West Pacific. The Delegate shall work with the owners of the various off-site properties to assist with the day-to-day operations over the respective property.

We should be careful when establishing the Criminal/Civil Code as not to contradict any authority given to the Delegate or any other officials outlined in this section. I think The Manners already lays out a purposefully straightforward procedure for the Delegate to address disputes and I believe that the only thing we should be passing here is an outline of laws instead of addressing how they're handled.

We don't need to include how the laws are handled or how sentencing is done in this document, as it is already acknowledged in The Manners.

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I am in complete agreement with Aleister's statement. I think it is fine to create a listing of crimes ... with a statement that the list is not comprehensive ..., but no further. The Delegate and their Guardians should not be constrained. The foundation of all TWP law is the supremacy of the Delegate.

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1 hour ago, Big Bad Badger said:

I am pretty uneasy with adding any further code or law. I appreciate the the old code: 1. All of your chocolate belongs to Darkesia.

2. Don't be a dick.

I am also fond of this simple code. However, the Manners presently call for a more formal code, and we still have none. If we wanted to, I suppose we could take that part out of the Manners...

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I would think of the civil code more of an extended list of things that upstanding citizens should avoid doing. We don’t really need to bind the government to taking any specific actions, but the CC would be a sort of reference point. “Don’t be a dick” might be common sense, but it’s also very subjective. It couldn’t hurt to clarify it with the most important things to look out for. 

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I think we've come to a consensus regarding the nature of the code—have it be a non-exhaustive outline of crimes, without assigning punishments/procedures or otherwise overriding Delegate and Guardian judgment. This leaves the question of what crimes, specifically, will be included in this outline.

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A Civil Code could be something like this (which we already have): https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=852295

As for a list of crimes (punishments not included), I previously had this list:

Quote
  • RMB spam
  • RMB recruitment
  • Treason (Epsionage, Conspiracy)
  • Treason (non-RMB sedition)
  • Violation of the endocap
  • Gross misconduct (OOC problems) 
 

What else should we add (or remove) from the list?

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I think our Delegate and Guardians need to be more heavily involved in directing what we do for this. Given the ambiguity and freedom they have in the region to take action and handle it on their own, they need to be the ones chiming in about what needs to be included here. They are the people directly enforcing the code of conduct in the region.

@Davelands

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8 hours ago, Saint Mark said:

Frankly, I'm not sure we need it. Our existing rules are pretty clear.

As was mentioned already, The Manners explicitly references this.

So we either need to make it or remove the clause in The Manners.

Spoiler

4. A Criminal and Civil Code and other legislation shall be established by the Hall of Nations and approved by the Delegate to provide for laws for all properties owned, operated and recognized by the legal Delegate of The West Pacific. 

 

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On 3/11/2018 at 5:26 PM, Saint Mark said:

We do have a Code of Conduct, though. 

We do and that can be purposed as a Civil Code. However, we still lack a Criminal Code. 

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