Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Ivan is a former Emperor and now Emperor again of TP. Lokg standing NPO player. Vlagh is an old TWP member as well, with years of active collaboration on this region. Old players had characters working independently in several regions. I play 4 different regions and in all of them I have different goals and approaches. So stop with the big bad wolf non-sense, is 1) stupid, 2) childish and 3) getting old. Every time another player brings up that it just a veiled attempt at calling your guardians useless and clueless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consular Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Don't get me wrong, I don't have any agenda against Ivan or anything. I just personally think duality is not possible and does not survive the toughest of interactions. People aren't capable of completely compartmentalizing their thoughts, opinions, and ambitions. It also isn't childish to ask questions Elegarth. Calling dissenters childish is a pretty dismissive way of dealing with issues. Darkesia and Malviet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Fear of the bad evil NPO is childish. I am not calling the dissenter childish, but their belief. Huge difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westwind Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 It may be childish but you are getting too defensive about it, which means you've got too much personally invested in it. TWP is not TP, you know that. The members here are clear on that, and they clearly don't like any hint of possible influence peddling here from TP. Thus they are expressing their concerns to the Delegate with hopes of being heard. In other words, I'd suggest tempering your language on the issue toward TWP citizens with concerns. Listen to them, understand them, don't put them down and belittle them. Hariko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 It may be childish but you are getting too defensive about it, which means you've got too much personally invested in it. Just as defensive as I was of TWP when TNP started criticizing Darkesia's decisions regarding the delegacy, so no issues as I see it. My homes will ALWAYS be my homes, and if I weren't defending them, I'd be an hypocrite, which I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhang Bhang Duc Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Okay. This might sound inappropriate, but I am actually concerned about the relation between Vlagh and Mr. Ivan Moldavi, a.k.a. Pierconium, Emperor of the NPO. Personally I think you have every right to be concerned. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for Vlagh/Pieconium/Ivan and his achievements in the NS universe. Trust him? Not so much. Malviet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westwind Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 This is why some use duality to hide behind. There can be no hypocrisy evident nor implied - no conflict of interest, when each persona is accepted as separate. When you play as an individual, regardless of different policies in different regions, you are still a single entity and responsible for all your positions everywhere. And you have to take that into account. I've always had to watch what I said and did in Equilism while being an official in TWP for example. Policies of the two do not mesh in all areas (for example, in regards to TP), yet I have my own opinion which is the same regardless of region I'm in. Yet I accept that my opinions are in the minority in Equilism and will not impose them or disparage others with differing opinion there. My comment remains. Officials need to respect the concerns of regional members, and not use name-calling to disregard their concerns. Bhang Bhang Duc and Drachmaland 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URAP Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Alright everybody- Calm down. Vlagh is a player here just as much as any of the rest of you. Ivan is the emperor of the NPO. They are the same person, but subject to duality. Is there some leakage between the two? Anyone who thinks not would be a fool. But Vlagh has no power here except through me. He can't dissolve the government without my permission. You have no reason to fear him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhang Bhang Duc Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Hamlet Act III Scene II - a most appropriate quote by Queen Gertrude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Hamlet Act III Scene II - a most appropriate quote by Queen Gertrude.Great play, great reading I should say. Never seen it live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westwind Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 Ivan is the emperor of the NPO. They are the same person, but subject to duality. And Ivan knows that the majority of NS players don't accept duality. You should know that it appears to people that you've selected the NPO Emperor to dissolve the TWP government. It's bad appearances, regardless of the intentions. That's the nature of politics. Again the problem remains the same.... Alright everybody- Calm down. First you need to listen to the comments, please do not dismiss them offhandedly this way. Might as well have joined Ele in calling people 'stupid'.... ......He can't dissolve the government without my permission. You have no reason to fear him. This is untrue. Any government on this forum can be formed and dissolved without your permission. Yes, he can remove your endorsement of a government because you gave him that authority, but that does not give him the authority to dissolve that government. This in itself...your misunderstanding and his misunderstanding of this basic tenant of TWP ingame/offsite separation....causes fear of him, backed by your support of him. IN OTHER WORDS.....THERE IS NO SEPARATION BETWEEN INGAME/OFFSITE IF THE DELEGATE CAN DISSOLVE THE OFFSITE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT RESPECT TO THE OFFSITE COMMUNITY You are quickly losing support in the region due to your position versus the region on this issue. It's past time to listen and stop being defensive. Bhang Bhang Duc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 First you need to listen to the comments, please do not dismiss them offhandedly this way. Might as well have joined Ele in calling people 'stupid'.... If you are gonna lie, please present evidence of me calling anyone stupid? Intelligent people can have stupid ideas and calling the idea stupid does not qualifies the person. Get your attempts to discredit people straight, please. I've openly and willingly called certain beliefs and ideas "childish", and other adjectives, but I haven't refereed to anyone as that. I don't understand how hard it is to see this difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hariko Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 People often associate their ideas with themselves. Darkesia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 People often associate their ideas with themselves. An idea is mine, but is not me. Isn't this a normal logic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westwind Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 If you are gonna lie, please present evidence of me calling anyone stupid? So stop with the big bad wolf non-sense, is 1) stupid, 2) childish and 3) getting old. Every time another player brings up that it just a veiled attempt at calling your guardians useless and clueless... Your words, not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Yes you just showed you are lying, as I never called anyone anything, I did used the adjectives on the big bad wolf belief. Thanks for showing yourself wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westwind Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 Very well. You have gone from saying TWP members are childish, now to calling liars. That's very nice of a Guardian. I will be reconsidering my support of the Guardians when then repeatedly seek to insult members of the region. BBD's call for a revolt sounds appropriate with this attitiude. Bhang Bhang Duc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 The fact that you fail to see the difference is either cultural or on purpose. In both cases, we seem to hit a wall of your own devise. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hariko Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Elegarth, stop it. Being condescending makes people not want to listen to you, and is also rude. Mediobogdum, Malviet and Darkesia 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 If anyone here can point to one instance over the last 10 to 12 years were I have allowed my OOC interactions elsewhere to influence my actions here in TWP I will remove That Called the Vlagh from the region. If you can't, then I would kindly ask that you shut up about it. I am well aware that most nations in NS do not currently accept the concept of duality, but that has not always been the case and I am simply reluctant to change how I have chosen to play this game for 12 years. Many people disagree with me but even some of my strongest opponents have reluctantly acknowledged that if duality is possible in NS that I am one of the best at it. Elegarth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elegarth Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Elegarth, stop it. Being condescending makes people not want to listen to you, and is also rude. I've got no idea what you mean. If I were condescending I wouldn't be discussing. I would be dismissing people with jokes, or silly-talking to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hariko Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Just stop, okay? You're embarrassing me. I'll talk to you about it later. Westwind, I'm really sorry this happened. I don't approve of this kind of behaviour and I'm quite displeased with some of my fellow Guardians' actions recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Called the Vlagh Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 As I don't have any official say-so on the matter, as an observing citizen, I would suggest you both stop responding to one another. Mediobogdum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URAP Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 If you guys really want me to drop Vlagh's Office so badly, I will. What you seem to wish to prevent is not prevented by this action. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consular Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Just as defensive as I was of TWP when TNP started criticizing Darkesia's decisions regarding the delegacy, so no issues as I see it. My homes will ALWAYS be my homes, and if I weren't defending them, I'd be an hypocrite, which I'm not. The difference here (which I thought was rather obvious) is that in that case you were being defensive against outsiders. Now you are being defensive against residents of TWP, who have a much greater right to be critical and deserve to be responded to constructively rather than dismissed. You are using claims of paranoia and insinuations that people are groundlessly fearmongering as a defence against the opinions of your own people. You therefore belittle those opinions, when you should be using them to understand the attitude of the region and adapt your own stance as a leader appropriately. This is why some use duality to hide behind. There can be no hypocrisy evident nor implied - no conflict of interest, when each persona is accepted as separate. When you play as an individual, regardless of different policies in different regions, you are still a single entity and responsible for all your positions everywhere. And you have to take that into account. I've always had to watch what I said and did in Equilism while being an official in TWP for example. Policies of the two do not mesh in all areas (for example, in regards to TP), yet I have my own opinion which is the same regardless of region I'm in. Yet I accept that my opinions are in the minority in Equilism and will not impose them or disparage others with differing opinion there. My comment remains. Officials need to respect the concerns of regional members, and not use name-calling to disregard their concerns. I am an administrator in Albion and have been closely involved with the community for a number of years now. Whilst I do my absolute best to separate my ambitions and do the best for each region independently, I have never claimed any sort of nonsensical immunity to bias based on duality. Tancerlo and Consular are one and the same, and my opinions are not separate from region to region. One can be responsible and balance multiple interests, but to do so it is important to recognise the limitations of this and how conflicts can arise, as through awareness you can try to avoid them. Duality hides from the problem and is misleading to others. Vlagh is a player here just as much as any of the rest of you.Ivan is the emperor of the NPO.They are the same person, but subject to duality.Is there some leakage between the two? Anyone who thinks not would be a fool.But Vlagh has no power here except through me. He can't dissolve the government without my permission. You have no reason to fear him. They are the same person, that is the end of that for all practical purposes. There is no such thing as 'subject to duality'. Duality is not a special status that gives protection or anything ridiculous like that. Most players don't even recognise it as a valid thing these days. Besides, as Westwind noted it's all about politics. Regardless of whether Vlagh acts independently of the NPO Emperor's ambitions or not, you are still allowing the person who is simultaneously the NPO Emperor to dissolve the civilian government in TWP. Just think about how that looks, and it might explain the surge in anti-NPO sentiment that Elegarth is trying so desperately to dismiss. If you are gonna lie, please present evidence of me calling anyone stupid? Intelligent people can have stupid ideas and calling the idea stupid does not qualifies the person. Get your attempts to discredit people straight, please. I've openly and willingly called certain beliefs and ideas "childish", and other adjectives, but I haven't refereed to anyone as that. I don't understand how hard it is to see this difference You're being a bit obtuse. Calling people's opinions stupid is very close to calling them themselves stupid and most will take it this way. Your words should always be judged by how others will receive them, not by how you might have subjectively meant them. If anyone here can point to one instance over the last 10 to 12 years were I have allowed my OOC interactions elsewhere to influence my actions here in TWP I will remove That Called the Vlagh from the region.If you can't, then I would kindly ask that you shut up about it.I am well aware that most nations in NS do not currently accept the concept of duality, but that has not always been the case and I am simply reluctant to change how I have chosen to play this game for 12 years. Many people disagree with me but even some of my strongest opponents have reluctantly acknowledged that if duality is possible in NS that I am one of the best at it. You certainly have the right to play that way and I don't begrudge you it. But people get to have opinions on that style of playing too, and said style very much does make you just as vulnerable to accusations of influence, just as vulnerable (in my opinion more so) than players who are the same everywhere. The people of TWP do not have to shut up about anything. Malviet, Hariko and Westwind 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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